1 2016-01-21T00:00:13 <maaku> What do you mean blocked by bitcoin?
2 2016-01-21T00:00:52 <joecool> maaku: I mean blocked specifically by a check in the configure code, relevant issue on the matter: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6244
3 2016-01-21T00:01:11 <TD-Linux> joecool, literally two seconds of googling: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6732
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5 2016-01-21T00:02:09 <TD-Linux> tl;dr it's not blocked anymore
6 2016-01-21T00:03:09 <joecool> TD-Linux: thanks
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68 2016-01-21T01:16:24 <rusty2> btcdrak, kanzure, jgarzik: I started the bitcoin-dev moderation review thread. Publicity would be welcome.
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72 2016-01-21T01:19:12 <sydOutlier> Hi all. Complete irc noob here please be gentle :p
73 2016-01-21T01:20:59 <sydOutlier> I am hoping to begin contributing to the bitcoin core development project but I am new to open source dev and was hoping I could get some pointers?
74 2016-01-21T01:21:10 <sydOutlier> Don't mind doing grunt work like testing etc.
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76 2016-01-21T01:22:23 <Guest91472> Look at the issue tracker on github. Read the source and try writing test cases to understand it better
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78 2016-01-21T01:22:36 <Guest91472> Get an IRC bouncer if you don't have one.
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80 2016-01-21T01:22:43 <gijensen> sydOutlier: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md
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82 2016-01-21T01:25:52 <sydOutlier> Thank you. I'm pretty new to Linux also. Have experience with Debian and Mint so far. Can you recommend a distro best suited to bitcoin dev?
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84 2016-01-21T01:26:29 <gijensen> Id recommend Debian
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86 2016-01-21T01:27:14 <gijensen> Whatever you're comfortable with though. Mint is similar anyways
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90 2016-01-21T01:29:22 <sydOutlier> Thanks. I really like Mint but its so feature rich I was thinking debian a more secure choice? Also I'd rather be learning proper linux commands than using an update manager app etc.
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98 2016-01-21T01:33:03 <sydOutlier> though I guess there's nothing to stop me doing that in Mint also but the spartan characteristic of debian remind me of being 16 and writing TSR programs in ms-dos (nostalgic appeal i guess)
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101 2016-01-21T01:35:53 <sydOutlier> so i guess i have a couple more questions (and again i apologise they will sound obtuse i grew up on microsoft tech):
102 2016-01-21T01:36:13 <sydOutlier> will i need to installe web server component of debian?
103 2016-01-21T01:37:20 <kefkius> sydOutlier: Nope, a web server is not required for development of bitcoin
104 2016-01-21T01:38:03 <kefkius> Also regarding distros: Since you're new to Linux, the best distro for development is whatever you can work comfortably in :)
105 2016-01-21T01:38:06 <sydOutlier> thank you. also are there any particular dev tools i should get?
106 2016-01-21T01:38:23 <kefkius> It's all personal preference
107 2016-01-21T01:38:35 <sydOutlier> thanks kefkius
108 2016-01-21T01:38:51 <kefkius> For example, all of my coding happens with vim and tmux, but that won't work for everybody
109 2016-01-21T01:38:53 <kefkius> np
110 2016-01-21T01:38:59 <sydOutlier> i'm kinda like a nervous refugee from microsoft totalitarian state lol
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113 2016-01-21T01:41:41 <gijensen> sydOutlier, generally Debian is thought to be more secure I believe. I certainly prefer it for servers anyways
114 2016-01-21T01:41:52 <sydOutlier> and the last but not least newbie question: i should "clone" the repository to get a local copy. i.e. don't want to affect dev branches in any way
115 2016-01-21T01:42:20 <gijensen> You have read-only access so don't worry about messing up someone's work but yes
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117 2016-01-21T01:42:34 <sydOutlier> thanks, gijensen
118 2016-01-21T01:42:39 <kefkius> Ahh, learning git is a great favor you can do for yourself, I do recommend that (as a random internet stranger)
119 2016-01-21T01:43:23 <gijensen> Yes I highly recommend learning how to use branches and remotes at least. They make flow a lot smoother
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121 2016-01-21T01:45:42 <sydOutlier> this is actually my first foray into open source dev. pretty excited about it actually after decades of soul-less ms dev in financial services
122 2016-01-21T01:46:07 <sydOutlier> unit registry migration in (ok not ms) sybase - yay what fun!
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124 2016-01-21T01:46:35 <sydOutlier> or fix the bug in this vb6 utility we have and no we don't use .net yet
125 2016-01-21T01:47:26 <sydOutlier> and the finest example of all: somehow learn vb3 cos that's what our portfolio mamnagement system is written in * dies inside *
126 2016-01-21T01:48:17 <sydOutlier> anyway off topic! thank you very much for the pointers. i'll be back when i have some semblence of an environment operational and have reviewed that doc link
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226 2016-01-21T04:10:33 <derbumi> kredits list
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260 2016-01-21T04:59:16 <alex_____> Is it possible to create a 2-2 multisig payout address without knowing 1 of the xpubs that comprise that address?
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273 2016-01-21T05:21:12 <kanzure> rusty: fwiw, re: +1s, i largely agree with you, with the following exception: if it was someone who was arguing the other position, and then was convinced by some further argumentation, it makes sense for the person to post a follow-up saying "Oh, yes, I agree.". and that should probably be let through the moderation queue.
274 2016-01-21T05:21:35 <rusty> kanzure: sure, it's deprecated, not banned.
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353 2016-01-21T06:41:53 <Lauda> "Back to SW, someone recently pointed out that in an environment of 75% SW nodes, the malicious users only need over 37.5% of hash power to attack the network. This is because the rest 25% of non-SW nodes will not be able to detect the double spending since what they see is only empty blocks "
354 2016-01-21T06:41:54 <Lauda> Anyone?
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435 2016-01-21T08:56:45 <sturles> False. They don't see empty blocks.
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440 2016-01-21T08:59:49 <sipa> alex___: no
441 2016-01-21T09:00:46 <da2ce7_> hello all :) Back from Vacatoin! India is beautaful!
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443 2016-01-21T09:01:16 <da2ce7_> (oh and it seems like spelling also left me).
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446 2016-01-21T09:03:44 <sipa> Lauda: incorrect; double spending rules are not cbanged by SW, and old nodes still see all inputs and outputs, they do not see empty blocks.
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450 2016-01-21T09:05:42 <jl2012> Lauda: the number of nodes has nothing to do with the hashing power
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453 2016-01-21T09:06:16 <sipa> right, and what jl2012 says: the statement seems to confuse hash power with full nodes
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455 2016-01-21T09:07:35 <jl2012> attack like that is always possible, but the threshold is always 51%
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458 2016-01-21T09:09:36 <sipa> it's more complicated: a 51% hashrate that agrees with each other can always produce the longest chain, but that still doesn't mean it will be considered valid
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461 2016-01-21T09:10:22 <jl2012> SPV node that do not do any validation will consider it valid
462 2016-01-21T09:10:41 <jl2012> but that's unrelated to segwit
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467 2016-01-21T09:12:44 <sipa> indeed
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469 2016-01-21T09:13:00 <sipa> also, the switchover point is intended to be 95%
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524 2016-01-21T10:06:29 <kang_> For a new developer looking to bitcoin dev, any advise on how to tackle the mailing-list mountain? How to organize, what is must & what can be left out?
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530 2016-01-21T10:09:31 <wumpus> kang_, I'd say work on what you want to work on, read posts that interest you, there's no way to follow everything
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533 2016-01-21T10:10:06 <kang_> wumpus: Thanks. If anyone joined recently, how did they organize it?
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556 2016-01-21T10:59:25 <btcdrak> kang_: yes, work on what you like. you are welcome to our weekly meetings too. 19:00UTC every Thursday
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558 2016-01-21T10:59:58 <btcdrak> kang_: also read CONTRIBUTING.md in the root of the source repository
559 2016-01-21T11:00:22 <kang_> btcdrak: yes, ok. thanks
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729 2016-01-21T14:15:20 <Lauda> Thanks sipa, jl2012.
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735 2016-01-21T14:21:31 <Lauda> "Based on such actual data and the avg block txs compositions SegWit will give s scaling factor of ~1.75x once the soft-fork will be adopted by 100% of the network.
736 2016-01-21T14:21:31 <Lauda> This is a possible scenario:
737 2016-01-21T14:21:31 <Lauda> - SegWit deployed on april/may 2016
738 2016-01-21T14:21:32 <Lauda> - Soft-Fork triggers in Jun/July 2016
739 2016-01-21T14:21:32 <Lauda> - 50% of adoption after one year
740 2016-01-21T14:21:33 <Lauda> if all the above are valid that means that you will have 1.35MB vitual max block size by june/july 2017.
741 2016-01-21T14:21:36 <Lauda> "
742 2016-01-21T14:21:40 <Lauda> Someone claimed this apaprently..
743 2016-01-21T14:21:54 <Lauda> https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/41uu0j
744 2016-01-21T14:22:07 <sipa> yes, that's correct, but not relevant
745 2016-01-21T14:22:18 <sipa> there is no need to wait for anyone else to upgrade
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748 2016-01-21T14:22:59 <Lauda> 1.35MB block size in July 2017?
749 2016-01-21T14:23:07 <sipa> once you upgrade, you youself get the scale improvement
750 2016-01-21T14:23:26 <sipa> as in: once you upgrade, you'll be able to do 1.75x as many transactions for the same price
751 2016-01-21T14:23:33 <sipa> independent of whether anyone else upgrades or not
752 2016-01-21T14:24:01 <sipa> (which probably leads to faster adopting if people care about it, but that's not necessary for the scale argument)
753 2016-01-21T14:24:06 <Lauda> sipa I've also read somewhere that F2Pool made a deal with Core for 2 MB blocks in 2017, is this true or propaganda?
754 2016-01-21T14:24:11 <Lauda> No idea where I've read this
755 2016-01-21T14:24:21 <sipa> i have not seen any proposal
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757 2016-01-21T14:25:15 <bsm1175321> @sipa Any comments on my proposal to tie an extension block mechanism to your new address format, as well as segwit, to alleviate some of these scaling concerns?
758 2016-01-21T14:25:32 <sipa> bsm1175321: if you can get that implemented in a few weeks, sure :)
759 2016-01-21T14:25:51 <bsm1175321> I'd like to, but I have a lot on my plate. :-(
760 2016-01-21T14:26:07 <sipa> just the address format change without a consensus rule to allow spending would mean that enabling the latter is a hard fork
761 2016-01-21T14:26:08 <bsm1175321> Starting with a BIP and making a capacity roadmap I think would help a lot.
762 2016-01-21T14:26:16 <sipa> feel free to write that
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764 2016-01-21T14:26:41 <bsm1175321> http://blog.sldx.com/go-fork-yourself-more-bitcoin-transactions/
765 2016-01-21T14:26:43 <sipa> i don't mean to sound dismissive, but i wouldn't want to make a claim in a roadmap without having a reasonable implementation ready
766 2016-01-21T14:27:02 <bsm1175321> I'd like to, but probably won't be able to get to it until next week. I was hoping to spur someone else to action.
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768 2016-01-21T14:27:52 <bsm1175321> sipa: I appreciate your need for an implementation. But obviously the 2MB crowd are not concerning themselves with such details.
769 2016-01-21T14:28:07 <bsm1175321> Making an extension block BIP is more PR than anything.
770 2016-01-21T14:28:22 <sipa> my time is limited too
771 2016-01-21T14:28:41 <bsm1175321> Anyone else?
772 2016-01-21T14:30:05 <gavinandresen> Go implement extension block support in the Core wallet code, then come back. If it has an OK user experience and wasn't six months of work, then maybe I'll change my mind about extension blocks.
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774 2016-01-21T14:30:48 <bsm1175321> gavinandresen: It's a grotesque way forward, I give you that. But it's better than doing violence to running bitcoin services who don't/can't upgrade.
775 2016-01-21T14:31:30 <gavinandresen> you have a strange notion of violence.
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777 2016-01-21T14:31:40 <gavinandresen> ... but that discussion isn't appropriate here
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779 2016-01-21T14:32:19 <gavinandresen> I'll re-state: go implement a prototype so we can judge it's technical feasibility.
780 2016-01-21T14:32:42 <gavinandresen> If it is technically feasible, then I'll reconsider my position on extension blocks as being a viable scaling mechanism.
781 2016-01-21T14:33:23 <bsm1175321> I think you know that won't be done by the time Classic forces this issue.
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783 2016-01-21T14:33:47 <gavinandresen> "okey dokey"
784 2016-01-21T14:34:25 <bsm1175321> Yeah you're right, breaking peoples bitcoin services is definitely better.
785 2016-01-21T14:35:48 <gavinandresen> send me an email explaining what services will be broken and explaining why they can't upgrade, please.
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787 2016-01-21T14:36:25 <gavinandresen> (again, that discussion isn't appropriate for here, this channel is for active development of stuff)
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789 2016-01-21T14:36:42 <bsm1175321> Let's say I built SatoshiDice and I fall ill...
790 2016-01-21T14:36:50 * bsm1175321 bows out.
791 2016-01-21T14:37:11 <Lauda> bsm1175321 this is why hard forks need to take a lot of time and consensus
792 2016-01-21T14:37:17 <Lauda> Rushing one makes no sense at all.
793 2016-01-21T14:38:26 <bsm1175321> This fight is way premature. I'm putting my time into braids, which will add FAR more capacity than any block size increase. I'd like us to evaluate braids, subchains, Bitcoin-NG on their technical merits to solve this problem, rather than causing a hard fork.
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795 2016-01-21T14:38:54 <bsm1175321> A hard fork is a short term band-aid that doesn't solve the underlying problem.
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797 2016-01-21T14:40:24 <JackH> a hard fork opens up for more hard forks
798 2016-01-21T14:40:32 <JackH> like more than 21 million coins
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807 2016-01-21T14:48:30 <Lauda> bsm1176321 braids?
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840 2016-01-21T15:18:20 <Chris_Stewart_5> gavinandresen: Can you embed strings into scriptPubKey's and still have them be valid?
841 2016-01-21T15:18:41 <Chris_Stewart_5> or scriptSigs for that matter
842 2016-01-21T15:19:20 <gavinandresen> scriptPubKeys are not interpreted until they are spent, so you can put anything you like there... but nodes won't relay them, and miners won't mine them.
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846 2016-01-21T15:20:12 <gavinandresen> scriptSigs are similar.
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848 2016-01-21T15:20:17 <Chris_Stewart_5> so if 'gavin_was_here' was in a script pubkey you just serlialize it byte by byte correct?
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850 2016-01-21T15:20:39 <Chris_Stewart_5> .. i'm going through your old test cases :-)
851 2016-01-21T15:20:50 <gavinandresen> do you mean how would you encode it in a scriptpubkey? If you want it to get relayed/mined, you'd embed it in an OP_RETURN scriptPubKey
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853 2016-01-21T15:21:32 <Chris_Stewart_5> i'm trying to rebuild the 'Script' language. There are files called script_valid.json and script_invalid.json which (from what I can tell) indicates valid and invalid script combinations
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856 2016-01-21T15:22:04 <gavinandresen> Ah-- if I recall correctly, double-quoted strings are turned into OP_PUSHDATA ... string ...
857 2016-01-21T15:22:15 <gavinandresen> .. by the JSON parsing code for those tests
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859 2016-01-21T15:23:04 <gavinandresen> Might be a special case if the string starts with 0x ... my memory is fuzzy
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861 2016-01-21T15:23:27 <Chris_Stewart_5> Yeah, I just wrote a regex to match the strings that start with '0x' to convert them to their byte representations
862 2016-01-21T15:23:44 <Chris_Stewart_5> Is there a reason the data formats are so inconsistent in the test cases? :/
863 2016-01-21T15:23:58 <gavinandresen> multiple people wrote various test cases....
864 2016-01-21T15:24:24 <Chris_Stewart_5> file i'm looking at btw: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/test/data/script_valid.json
865 2016-01-21T15:24:26 <gavinandresen> Or they were written at different times by somebody like me who forgets what they did three years ago
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921 2016-01-21T16:21:50 <jonasschnelli> maaku are you sure about "signing process does not use random nonces"... what's https://github.com/bitcoin/secp256k1/blob/master/include/secp256k1.h#L552 for?
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925 2016-01-21T16:25:14 <maaku> jonasschnelli: default nonce function is this: https://github.com/bitcoin/secp256k1/blob/master/src/secp256k1.c#L314
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927 2016-01-21T16:26:31 <jonasschnelli> maaku: okay. I see. Hmm.. why do we fees/randomize the context with 32byte of entropy? (https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/605c17844ea32b6d237db6d83871164dc7d59dab/src/key.cpp#L307)
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1042 2016-01-21T18:59:46 <jonasschnelli> meeting?
1043 2016-01-21T18:59:52 <wumpus> #startmeeting
1044 2016-01-21T18:59:52 <lightningbot`> Meeting started Thu Jan 21 18:59:52 2016 UTC. The chair is wumpus. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
1045 2016-01-21T18:59:52 <lightningbot`> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
1046 2016-01-21T19:00:07 <wumpus> topic proposals?
1047 2016-01-21T19:00:18 <jonasschnelli> proposed topic opt-in RBF default value
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1050 2016-01-21T19:01:35 <wumpus> I'd say there's been enough discussion of that on github already today, but ok
1051 2016-01-21T19:01:35 <cfields> proposed topic: 0.11 backport release for (at least) chainstate obfuscation
1052 2016-01-21T19:01:36 *** mnk has joined #bitcoin-dev
1053 2016-01-21T19:01:53 <wumpus> #topic opt-in RBF default value
1054 2016-01-21T19:01:56 <jonasschnelli> proposed topic: leveldb corruption
1055 2016-01-21T19:02:04 <jonasschnelli> okay. RBF...
1056 2016-01-21T19:02:27 <jonasschnelli> today i said lets not get pushed into a corner... but somehow users are afraid of RBF.
1057 2016-01-21T19:02:38 <jeremias> hmm, is leveldb prone for corruption?
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1060 2016-01-21T19:03:53 <jonasschnelli> not saying we should make the RBF default false, but maybe we should consider in in terms to not deeper splitting the community
1061 2016-01-21T19:03:58 <wumpus> I've said everything I wanted to say on the topic in https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7386 https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7388
1062 2016-01-21T19:04:17 <jonasschnelli> Okay. I agree.
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1064 2016-01-21T19:04:49 <wumpus> #topic 0.11 backport release for (at least) chainstate obfuscation
1065 2016-01-21T19:04:53 <jonasschnelli> I think we should then stick to what we said and keep RBF on by default. I'm fine with this it should just be the groups opinion.
1066 2016-01-21T19:06:16 <wumpus> ACK on backport release, the code (#7259) is already in there, so it's just a matter of tagging
1067 2016-01-21T19:06:41 <gmaxwell> I had suggested we do that back at the last 0.11 release... but the changes aren't super small and obviously correct.
1068 2016-01-21T19:06:42 <wumpus> it also has some other fixes like #7381
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1070 2016-01-21T19:06:45 <cfields> context: it's not possible to downgrade from 0.12 -> 0.11 in most cases.
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1072 2016-01-21T19:06:51 <cfields> right, sounds good
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1074 2016-01-21T19:07:02 <phantomcircuit> jonasschnelli, i have yet to see a single entity which accepts unconfirmed transactions raise issue with opt-in RBF
1075 2016-01-21T19:07:04 <sdaftuar> will pruning nodes be able to downgrade withotu redownloading the blockchain? i havent' reviewed that pull yet
1076 2016-01-21T19:07:04 <gmaxwell> cfields: right, not if you started on 0.12 or reindexed on 0.12.
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1079 2016-01-21T19:07:35 <wumpus> jonasschnelli: it seems by far most want to leave it enabled, there are a few people strongly against it, which now have their option
1080 2016-01-21T19:07:51 <cfields> gmaxwell: are you nervous about the backport? or the change itself when it went in?
1081 2016-01-21T19:07:53 <jonasschnelli> wumpus: Yes. Fully agree.
1082 2016-01-21T19:08:01 <wumpus> sdaftuar, downgrading is no issue, unless you've reindexed
1083 2016-01-21T19:08:32 <wumpus> reindexing builds a new chainstate with obfuscation enabled
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1085 2016-01-21T19:09:15 <wumpus> which is why we want to backport so that people get a sane error message instead of an assertion fail
1086 2016-01-21T19:09:22 <gmaxwell> cfields: I'm not really nervous, but some expressed nervousness before; and I couldn't disagree. Perhaps we're better now that it's been in master for a long time.
1087 2016-01-21T19:09:43 <sdaftuar> wumpus: ah ok
1088 2016-01-21T19:09:44 <wumpus> gmaxwell, to be clear this is not a backport of the obfuscation code, just an error
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1090 2016-01-21T19:10:14 <cfields> wumpus: oh, that wasn't my understanding. guess i need to click on those PRs
1091 2016-01-21T19:10:20 <wumpus> gmaxwell, see #7259
1092 2016-01-21T19:10:32 <wumpus> ^ cfields
1093 2016-01-21T19:10:35 <jonasschnelli> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7259
1094 2016-01-21T19:10:39 <wumpus> so there's no reason to be nervous
1095 2016-01-21T19:10:43 <cfields> wumpus: right, looking
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1097 2016-01-21T19:12:22 <gmaxwell> oh! just an error.
1098 2016-01-21T19:12:24 <cfields> wumpus: i don't care strongly enough to argue, works for me
1099 2016-01-21T19:12:26 <gmaxwell> sorry, missed that.
1100 2016-01-21T19:12:29 <gmaxwell> okay. sounds great.
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1102 2016-01-21T19:13:00 <btcdrak> oh i'm late
1103 2016-01-21T19:13:12 <wumpus> gmaxwell, the current assertion has put many people on the wrong track (thinking this was corruption), so an error is better. Even better would be versionoing in chainstate like we have for the wallet, so this can be avoided in the future, but this is good for now
1104 2016-01-21T19:13:16 <e4xit> Hello, is this the right channel to ask a question about failing "make" part of building of bitcoin core 0.12?
1105 2016-01-21T19:13:35 <jonasschnelli> e4xit: use #bitcoin
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1107 2016-01-21T19:13:41 <e4xit> ok
1108 2016-01-21T19:13:52 <wumpus> e4xit, normally it's ok but we're in the middle of a meeeting
1109 2016-01-21T19:14:03 <e4xit> I thought it sounded like that :)
1110 2016-01-21T19:14:25 <cfields> wumpus: version makes sense
1111 2016-01-21T19:15:16 <wumpus> I do think we should do a 0.11 backport release immediately after 0.12 final, instead of before, to avoid confusion
1112 2016-01-21T19:15:43 <gmaxwell> we could do it concurrently and just not announce the 0.11 update.
1113 2016-01-21T19:15:47 <wumpus> (e.g. having both 0.12.0 and 0.11.3 in RC phase)
1114 2016-01-21T19:15:56 <wumpus> sure, could be almost immediately
1115 2016-01-21T19:15:57 <gmaxwell> ah but yes, we'd get no testing on it.
1116 2016-01-21T19:16:26 <wumpus> there's much less testing needed for the 0.11 release than for a new major release, but still makes sense to do one RC
1117 2016-01-21T19:17:03 <gmaxwell> yes, I agree with your reasoning. FWIW.
1118 2016-01-21T19:17:17 <cfields> proposed next topic: c++11 update
1119 2016-01-21T19:17:38 <wumpus> agree this topic is done, but we still had
1120 2016-01-21T19:17:42 <wumpus> #topic leveldb corruption
1121 2016-01-21T19:17:50 <wumpus> (this is news for me btw)
1122 2016-01-21T19:17:55 <cfields> ok
1123 2016-01-21T19:18:24 <wumpus> @jonasschnelli
1124 2016-01-21T19:18:55 <gmaxwell> The issue I saw this morning said the corruption was during IBD. But IIRC we disable fsync on the block files during IBD. Is there more to it than that?
1125 2016-01-21T19:19:06 <jonasschnelli> corruption: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/7382
1126 2016-01-21T19:19:11 <jonasschnelli> Isn't that leveldb?
1127 2016-01-21T19:19:53 <wumpus> jonasschnelli, that's a strange issue, I don't think it's related to leveldb itself though
1128 2016-01-21T19:20:08 <jonasschnelli> I also had a corrupt database after running 0.12 (maybe not related, was running a external SSD).
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1130 2016-01-21T19:20:30 <jonasschnelli> I just think in general, we see lots of db corruptions with bitcoin core.
1131 2016-01-21T19:20:45 *** sipa has joined #bitcoin-dev
1132 2016-01-21T19:20:52 <jonasschnelli> Wonder if we like to sketch a plan / roadmap for a better strategy
1133 2016-01-21T19:20:55 <sipa> oops, did i miss meeting?
1134 2016-01-21T19:21:05 <jonasschnelli> (you missed 20 mins)
1135 2016-01-21T19:21:07 <gmaxwell> jonasschnelli: I believe that issue is unrelated.
1136 2016-01-21T19:21:20 <gmaxwell> jonasschnelli: and I think phantomcircuit can reproduce it now.
1137 2016-01-21T19:21:38 <maaku> Jonas well switching to a new, maintained db is the long term plan, no?
1138 2016-01-21T19:21:54 <maaku> But we know what remains to be done there
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1140 2016-01-21T19:22:26 <gmaxwell> I'm not aware of any evidence of leveldb corruption on linux, right now, and I've been running the most agressive testing I can perform on 0.12 for the last month. Eg. a node with four daemons running under load test and random kill -9ing the process and random power cuts every few hours and no corruption.
1141 2016-01-21T19:22:36 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i reproduced the error once and haven't been able to since
1142 2016-01-21T19:22:40 <phantomcircuit> which has me a bit puzzled
1143 2016-01-21T19:22:42 <wumpus> just don't blame everything on leveldb: application errors that happen to happen with something stored in the leveldb database are not leveldb corruption errors
1144 2016-01-21T19:22:49 <wumpus> this may well be a bug in our code
1145 2016-01-21T19:23:00 <jonasschnelli> Indeed.
1146 2016-01-21T19:23:04 <gmaxwell> or in the OS/filesystem.
1147 2016-01-21T19:23:09 <wumpus> right.
1148 2016-01-21T19:23:31 <wumpus> but as we don't have more information, it's impossible to say. Unfortunately he didn't make a backup before upgrading
1149 2016-01-21T19:23:32 <jonasschnelli> Also not sure about Virtualized envs (sudden shutdowns)... and Windows.
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1151 2016-01-21T19:24:09 <jonasschnelli> Okay. I will grab out the logs from the prev. meeting where we did discuss that topic (sqlite, etc.).
1152 2016-01-21T19:24:12 <wumpus> it is the only report of this issue that we have
1153 2016-01-21T19:24:15 <gmaxwell> I think it's likely that many virtualized envs get fsync wrong, in which case there isn't much that any database could do. :(
1154 2016-01-21T19:25:10 <wumpus> ok, next topic?
1155 2016-01-21T19:25:14 <dkog> LevelDB can corrupt due to OS performing out-of-order writes... https://www.usenix.org/conference/osdi14/technical-sessions/presentation/pillai
1156 2016-01-21T19:26:14 <jonasschnelli> <cfields> proposed next topic: c++11 update
1157 2016-01-21T19:26:16 <wumpus> #topic c++11
1158 2016-01-21T19:26:31 <cfields> just wanted to give a brief update there
1159 2016-01-21T19:26:40 <bsm117532> IIRC there are 6 lines that need to change, relating to the use of shared_ptr/unique_ptr. I have a patch.
1160 2016-01-21T19:26:43 <cfields> afaik, all changes needed for c++11 have gone in and we're ready to switch. atm, the only hold-out is travis. I've talked with their team, and they've indicated that the features we need (trusty, caching) will be ready by the end of the month. So I've proposed that we wait for that to flip the switch, since it's not that far out.
1161 2016-01-21T19:26:44 <wumpus> did travis already upgrade?
1162 2016-01-21T19:27:17 <wumpus> awesome, thanks for the update cfields
1163 2016-01-21T19:27:21 <cfields> wumpus: nothing new, just posting it here for the record
1164 2016-01-21T19:27:34 <CodeShark> nice, thanks cfields
1165 2016-01-21T19:27:36 <sipa> i agree with waiting until we can test
1166 2016-01-21T19:27:36 <jtimon> we can wait a month, awesome
1167 2016-01-21T19:27:53 <wumpus> agreed
1168 2016-01-21T19:27:59 <btcdrak> proposed topic "EOL policy"
1169 2016-01-21T19:28:04 <gmaxwell> There was a report of wangchung from f2pool that he would not run code that required a C++11 compiler. I don't know if anyone has spoken with him to try to figure out what it would take for him to upgrade his operating systems in the future. I think that conversation should happen.
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1171 2016-01-21T19:28:26 <wumpus> or use static linking
1172 2016-01-21T19:28:26 <cfields> gmaxwell: i saw that and i'd really like to understand the concern
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1174 2016-01-21T19:28:34 <cfields> wangchun: ping
1175 2016-01-21T19:28:48 <wumpus> the gitian-built executables don't need any special OS support after the C++11 switch
1176 2016-01-21T19:28:48 <cfields> fwiw, official binary releases are statically linked
1177 2016-01-21T19:28:50 <btcdrak> mayeb jl2012 can reach out in Chinese
1178 2016-01-21T19:28:54 <gmaxwell> cfields: not during the meeting. :)
1179 2016-01-21T19:28:54 <wumpus> this is just for compiling
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1181 2016-01-21T19:29:16 <cfields> ok, sure
1182 2016-01-21T19:29:22 <gmaxwell> I'm just bringing it up so it's not a surprise at the 0.13 release time.
1183 2016-01-21T19:29:39 <kangx_> let me know anything i can help to bring the message to wangchun.
1184 2016-01-21T19:30:17 <jtimon> next topic?
1185 2016-01-21T19:30:32 <wumpus> #topic EOL policy
1186 2016-01-21T19:30:38 <btcdrak> I have been putting together a software lifecycle document which I'd like further feedback on https://github.com/bitcoin-core/website/pull/37
1187 2016-01-21T19:30:39 <cfields> kangx_: i'll ping him in #bitcoin-core-dev after the meeting. feel free to help relay
1188 2016-01-21T19:30:51 <kangx_> ok. that is fine with me..
1189 2016-01-21T19:30:57 <jtimon> action item talk to wangchun about C++11 eupgrade ?
1190 2016-01-21T19:31:00 <cfields> kangx_: thanks :)
1191 2016-01-21T19:31:15 <wumpus> I've replied there https://github.com/bitcoin-core/website/pull/37#issuecomment-172494669
1192 2016-01-21T19:31:20 <kangx_> sure..
1193 2016-01-21T19:31:48 <jonasschnelli> Agree with wumpus about EOL: "I tend to regard the last two major releases as maintained"
1194 2016-01-21T19:31:49 <btcdrak> wumpus: sure. just wanted bring to everyone's attention for RFC
1195 2016-01-21T19:32:11 <wumpus> btcdrak, yes, just wanted to bring it to attention so I don't have to re-type everything here ;)
1196 2016-01-21T19:32:17 <btcdrak> :)
1197 2016-01-21T19:32:22 <gmaxwell> I don't know how useful or used our backports are, even just one release back. I think in principle we should continue to do it; but perhaps we're wasting resources on things that aren't helpful to anyone.
1198 2016-01-21T19:32:48 <gmaxwell> If there are people who use them (rather than just staying with old versions and not upgrading), they haven't been providing any feedback anyplace I can see them.
1199 2016-01-21T19:32:56 <wumpus> perhaps. But it seems there are people willing to do even more work here, like Luke-Jr
1200 2016-01-21T19:32:59 <cfields> gmaxwell: it may be a useful policy to just play it as "see if anyone yells"
1201 2016-01-21T19:33:12 <jtimon> maybe we could have something like ubuntu's long term support and officially support only the last tw plus the last LTS one ?
1202 2016-01-21T19:33:33 *** tjader has joined #bitcoin-dev
1203 2016-01-21T19:33:37 <sipa> jtimon: and how frequently would LTSs be?
1204 2016-01-21T19:33:40 <btcdrak> jtimon: I was waiting to see if anyone brought that up.
1205 2016-01-21T19:33:45 <wumpus> I don't see a strong reason to switch to another policy than has been implicit already all this time
1206 2016-01-21T19:33:57 <jtimon> I don't know, 4 years? I mean, maybe only backport consensus critical stuff
1207 2016-01-21T19:33:58 *** GAit has quit IRC
1208 2016-01-21T19:33:58 <btcdrak> The thing about LTS is they are maintained for years.
1209 2016-01-21T19:33:58 <gmaxwell> wumpus: perhaps-- but just luke doing backports doesn't mean there is meaningful testing. I worry a lot that one of these backports will have some awful bug from integration; fortunately if no one runs them that also doesn't matter.
1210 2016-01-21T19:34:05 <sipa> backports are a drain on manpower, and if they end up being unused mostly, they may not get sufficient testing to consider thay safe
1211 2016-01-21T19:34:17 <maaku> I think it would be irresponsible not to have a policy at least with regards to security back ports and consensus changes
1212 2016-01-21T19:34:32 <gmaxwell> But I think the current policy is not bad, I wouldn't want to make it stronger without any evidence that people care.
1213 2016-01-21T19:34:33 <sipa> we should have a policy, i agfee
1214 2016-01-21T19:34:36 <wumpus> maaku, we do those
1215 2016-01-21T19:34:37 <btcdrak> I just wanted to document EOL given the scale at which Core software is used at enterprise level.
1216 2016-01-21T19:34:48 *** AtnevRed has joined #bitcoin-dev
1217 2016-01-21T19:34:52 <jtimon> ok, just something that crossed my main, please continue the discussion without the LTS proposal
1218 2016-01-21T19:35:10 <gmaxwell> maaku: it's irrelevant if litterally no one uses them. Right now our last 0.10 backport is totally unused as far as I can tell.
1219 2016-01-21T19:35:18 <jonasschnelli> EOL is something that people can hold onto. Gives trust, makes a project look stable. I think we should have a clear policy and follow it.
1220 2016-01-21T19:35:50 <wumpus> so to be clear: so you're arguing to not do backports at all anymore gmaxwell
1221 2016-01-21T19:35:57 <btcdrak> jonasschnelli: exactly
1222 2016-01-21T19:36:01 <maaku> It also affects development, with respect to whether features have to be back ported or not changes the design.
1223 2016-01-21T19:36:08 <maaku> This has been a point of contention recently.
1224 2016-01-21T19:36:12 <gmaxwell> at the last soft fork we saw people mining on it with a signficant fraction of the hashrate, running git _master_, not even a release.
1225 2016-01-21T19:36:23 <wumpus> features are not backported, the idea is to backport fixes
1226 2016-01-21T19:36:30 <cfields> maaku: good point. c++11 usage will be affected strongly.
1227 2016-01-21T19:36:38 <sipa> wumpus: consensus changes are backported though
1228 2016-01-21T19:36:48 <wumpus> sipa, yes, to help adoption
1229 2016-01-21T19:36:56 <maaku> sipa but how far?
1230 2016-01-21T19:36:57 <btcdrak> My own understanding is maintenance releases get softforks and bug fixes only.
1231 2016-01-21T19:37:10 <jonasschnelli> btcdrak: +1
1232 2016-01-21T19:37:13 <jonasschnelli> Thats a clear policy.
1233 2016-01-21T19:37:16 <btcdrak> maaku: as far back as is required for miners
1234 2016-01-21T19:37:18 <gmaxwell> wumpus: I don't know. I am observing the backports appear to be a waste of time. From a matter of principle, I think they are important, but the industry doesn't appear to agree.
1235 2016-01-21T19:37:20 <sipa> maaku: that's what we're discussion :)
1236 2016-01-21T19:37:34 <wumpus> I disagree with completely stopping backports, but ok, if everyone else thinks that I"m happy to drop that work I'm busy enough
1237 2016-01-21T19:37:39 <jtimon> wumpus: softforks are also backported
1238 2016-01-21T19:37:39 <btcdrak> we dont really have a good way on knowing what miners are running though.
1239 2016-01-21T19:37:59 <sipa> i think we should continue them, and clearly document the policy
1240 2016-01-21T19:38:06 <gmaxwell> wumpus: I think continuing with what we're doing for now is okay, but I do worry that the backports don't see adequate testing (a symptom of no one actually using them)
1241 2016-01-21T19:38:07 <cfields> seems it's hard/impossible to say what will be necessary to backport in the fugure, but imo it'd be reasonable to say explicitly "after version X's release, version Y will receive no more updates"
1242 2016-01-21T19:38:13 <btcdrak> I think we should continue with the status quo wumpus has established
1243 2016-01-21T19:38:14 <maaku> For the record I don't care what the answer is. But I care strongly that we decide on one policy. :)
1244 2016-01-21T19:38:18 <sipa> we should also not feel bad about changing the policy, if we clearly announce
1245 2016-01-21T19:38:39 <sipa> maaku: agree
1246 2016-01-21T19:38:58 <gmaxwell> Well I think our current policy is that we backport bugfixes (based on severity and difficulty of backport) and soft-forks to the last major version.
1247 2016-01-21T19:39:14 <wumpus> indeed gmaxwell
1248 2016-01-21T19:39:19 <jonasschnelli> I would say to the last *two* major versions..
1249 2016-01-21T19:39:22 <sipa> yeah, but it seems to have been pretty adhoc
1250 2016-01-21T19:39:28 <jonasschnelli> 0.11 and 0.10 in the current state.
1251 2016-01-21T19:39:44 <sipa> jonasschnelli: and once 0.12 is released?
1252 2016-01-21T19:39:51 <wumpus> it becomes 0.11 and 0.12
1253 2016-01-21T19:39:51 <gmaxwell> jonasschnelli: do you mean when 0.12 is out we should continue backporting to 0.10?
1254 2016-01-21T19:39:52 <sipa> only 0.11 and 0.12 then?
1255 2016-01-21T19:39:56 <wumpus> yes sipa
1256 2016-01-21T19:40:00 <sipa> sounds good to me
1257 2016-01-21T19:40:07 <wumpus> although Luke-Jr apparently wants to pick up and maintain 0.10
1258 2016-01-21T19:40:11 *** AtnevRed has quit IRC
1259 2016-01-21T19:40:14 <jonasschnelli> Once 0.12 is released 0.12 and 0.11 (sorry, was a bit confisuing)
1260 2016-01-21T19:40:20 <gmaxwell> jonasschnelli: okay
1261 2016-01-21T19:40:29 <sipa> final release of 0.X means EOL of 0.(X-2)
1262 2016-01-21T19:40:39 <btcdrak> hurray for math
1263 2016-01-21T19:40:54 <jonasschnelli> The signal of and the value of that signal of supporting older versions is extremely valuable IMO (especially in such times)
1264 2016-01-21T19:40:54 <jtimon> ok ,topic solved?
1265 2016-01-21T19:40:55 <wumpus> it's ad hoc in a way, how ciritical something needs to be to be backported, but there's no way to avoid that
1266 2016-01-21T19:40:57 <CodeShark> why would people download a bugfix to an older version rather than just grab the latest version other than custom patches?
1267 2016-01-21T19:41:02 *** ttttemp__ has joined #bitcoin-dev
1268 2016-01-21T19:41:11 <cfields> then i agree with wumpus's goal of doing 0.12 before 0.11 backport. that way we don't have to do it for 0.10 :p
1269 2016-01-21T19:41:16 <sipa> CodeShark: custom patches
1270 2016-01-21T19:41:19 <jonasschnelli> cfields: hah
1271 2016-01-21T19:41:24 <maaku> And since we're on a 6mo cadence, that's 1yr support
1272 2016-01-21T19:41:26 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: because they're carrying local patches, or do not want to invalidate integration testing they've performed.
1273 2016-01-21T19:41:38 <wumpus> yes, custom patches. The tagging is mostly symbolic then, I agree, but still
1274 2016-01-21T19:42:07 <wumpus> and "this works and I don't want to risk a large upgrade or read a lot of release notes"
1275 2016-01-21T19:42:37 <jonasschnelli> proposed neighbor topic: shorter release cycles?!
1276 2016-01-21T19:42:47 <jonasschnelli> 0.12 changelog is --- huge!
1277 2016-01-21T19:43:17 <jtimon> jonasschnelli: to what timeframe?
1278 2016-01-21T19:43:47 <wangchun> cfields kangx_: pong, i'm on my way to the aiport for early morning flight
1279 2016-01-21T19:43:49 <wumpus> I don't know,I like a major release per half year, at least you can really call it major
1280 2016-01-21T19:44:01 <gmaxwell> I would like a shorter cycle, but I don't know if it's realistic. Right now the long cycle is like a 3 month RC cycle for high risk features that go in early in the cycle.
1281 2016-01-21T19:44:06 <wumpus> it's a lot of testing and effort to finalize a release
1282 2016-01-21T19:44:07 <jonasschnelli> Not sure, 4month to short?
1283 2016-01-21T19:44:15 <maaku> I think 6mo is pretty fast...
1284 2016-01-21T19:44:25 <sdaftuar> wumpus: agreed, the overhead of a release is time consuming
1285 2016-01-21T19:44:35 <sipa> shorter releases would reduce the "oops release coming we *must* get X in quickly!" fever
1286 2016-01-21T19:44:40 <cfields> wangchun: i'll ping you after the meeting in #bitcoin-core-dev. If you're already gone, we can talk about it later
1287 2016-01-21T19:44:42 <btcdrak> by the time we get around though it's usually 7+ months irrc
1288 2016-01-21T19:44:51 <wumpus> sipa, I don't believe that
1289 2016-01-21T19:44:59 <wumpus> sipa, it just increases the occurence of that
1290 2016-01-21T19:45:02 <gmaxwell> maaku: the cyclelength also contributes to frustration and pressure to get features in.
1291 2016-01-21T19:45:06 <sipa> wumpus: fair enough
1292 2016-01-21T19:45:08 <btcdrak> if we aimed for 5 months, maybe we'd be closer to 6
1293 2016-01-21T19:45:10 <kangx_> ok.
1294 2016-01-21T19:45:19 <jonasschnelli> Yes. Maybe 6 months is good. It just feels 0.11 was ages ago... but maybe that's just how a dev feels it.
1295 2016-01-21T19:45:23 <kangx_> wangcun: what is your wechat account?
1296 2016-01-21T19:45:55 <wumpus> for users it's not really better to have more frequent major releases I think. Upgrading may not always be a trivial process and comes with a risk
1297 2016-01-21T19:46:00 <jtimon> gmaxwell: as in longest = more frustration?
1298 2016-01-21T19:46:25 <wumpus> it compounds the EOL problem
1299 2016-01-21T19:46:26 <jtimon> mo, I guess the opposite
1300 2016-01-21T19:46:35 <gmaxwell> jtimon: yes; as in "my work is a waste of time because it won't see the light of day for another 6 months if it doesn't go in now"
1301 2016-01-21T19:46:51 <gmaxwell> in any case, I don't think we're in a position to consider a change in that process right now.
1302 2016-01-21T19:46:52 <jtimon> gmaxwell: thanks, yeah, makes sense
1303 2016-01-21T19:46:57 <wumpus> what are the release cycles for other mature projects?
1304 2016-01-21T19:47:13 <btcdrak> Ubuntu is 6 monthly
1305 2016-01-21T19:47:40 <maaku> There is a ton of work that goes into releases, like string translation.
1306 2016-01-21T19:47:46 <wumpus> indeed maaku
1307 2016-01-21T19:47:52 <gmaxwell> wumpus: there are many things that are quarterly and many things that are biannually for major releases (and of course many much slower too)
1308 2016-01-21T19:47:59 <jonasschnelli> I think 6 month is perfectly fine... if just the GUI and wallet would be detached, we could to more released there.
1309 2016-01-21T19:48:00 <wumpus> it's surprising how devs, of all, seem to underestimate that
1310 2016-01-21T19:48:08 <sipa> firefox releases every 6 weeks
1311 2016-01-21T19:48:09 <btcdrak> yes. But I think we can wrap up sooner to allow translations/QA and RC
1312 2016-01-21T19:48:17 <wumpus> jonasschnelli, +1 on a faster release cycle for the GUI if that was possible
1313 2016-01-21T19:48:36 *** ronbo has joined #bitcoin-dev
1314 2016-01-21T19:48:40 <btcdrak> if we finished dev work at 5 months, then we'd have less slippage from the 6mnth mark
1315 2016-01-21T19:48:46 <wumpus> but we have this huge monilithic project and yes everything needs to be synchronized
1316 2016-01-21T19:48:55 <wumpus> btcdrak, I plan a release every 6 months
1317 2016-01-21T19:48:59 <cfields> oh, reminds me. topic suggestion: current server/wallet inter-dependencies
1318 2016-01-21T19:49:00 <jtimon> a year is not multiple of 5 months releases, shorter than 4 months seems to big of a change, I think if we move from 6 months it would be to 4 months no matter what other projects do
1319 2016-01-21T19:49:03 <gmaxwell> wumpus: firefox is now nearly _monthly_ major releases.
1320 2016-01-21T19:49:14 <wumpus> gmaxwell, I don't really want to follow firefox inthat
1321 2016-01-21T19:49:16 <maaku> I think we just need more clarity on things like redactor windows.
1322 2016-01-21T19:49:23 <jtimon> s/to big/too big
1323 2016-01-21T19:49:26 <wumpus> btcdrak, there are always two releases per year now
1324 2016-01-21T19:49:27 <sipa> i am perfectly fine with 6 months
1325 2016-01-21T19:49:43 <gmaxwell> wumpus: I wouldn't suggest that; only pointing out that there are large projects behind basically any schedule you might consider.
1326 2016-01-21T19:49:43 <wumpus> maaku, I always post a release schedule in advance on the mailing list
1327 2016-01-21T19:50:05 *** markus-k_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
1328 2016-01-21T19:50:13 <wumpus> I'm fine with adding more deadlines though if that feels better :)
1329 2016-01-21T19:50:20 <gmaxwell> Slower cycles also mean reduced user feedback. Different parts of the system benefit differently from that.
1330 2016-01-21T19:50:21 <jtimon> I'm fine with 6 months but wouldn't oppose to 4 motnhs either
1331 2016-01-21T19:50:55 <wumpus> gmaxwell, as said, I'd be OK with faster release cycle for the GUI if that was possible
1332 2016-01-21T19:50:56 *** Yoghur114 has joined #bitcoin-dev
1333 2016-01-21T19:50:58 <gmaxwell> e.g. if most of our current activity were UI facing it would be more adventagious to have a faster cycle.
1334 2016-01-21T19:51:00 <wumpus> but not for the core code
1335 2016-01-21T19:51:17 <jonasschnelli> Agree.
1336 2016-01-21T19:51:20 <sipa> ok
1337 2016-01-21T19:51:27 <jonasschnelli> I have to admit wumpus does a awesome job on keeping deadlines for the releases!
1338 2016-01-21T19:51:34 <maaku> wumpus your release schedule did not have a refactoring window
1339 2016-01-21T19:51:40 <btcdrak> jonasschnelli: +1
1340 2016-01-21T19:51:56 *** brson_ has quit IRC
1341 2016-01-21T19:52:14 <jtimon> yeah, if shortenning it is going to mean not keeping deadlines, let's not do it
1342 2016-01-21T19:52:28 <gmaxwell> in any case, I think this discussion is covered.
1343 2016-01-21T19:52:30 <wumpus> maaku, true
1344 2016-01-21T19:52:57 <btcdrak> so it's basically as written in the EOL PP
1345 2016-01-21T19:52:58 <jonasschnelli> maaku: refactoring? We have a main.cpp. We don't need refactoring. :)
1346 2016-01-21T19:53:00 <btcdrak> PR
1347 2016-01-21T19:53:27 <wumpus> yes, it's the same thing every time, I want 6 months everyone else wants a shorter release cycle, at some point I'm going to make one of you release manager and figure it out :p
1348 2016-01-21T19:53:41 <jonasschnelli> :}
1349 2016-01-21T19:53:44 <gmaxwell> jonasschnelli: can we move everything back into main.cpp? I'd save a lot of time grepping. :P
1350 2016-01-21T19:53:51 <btcdrak> LOL
1351 2016-01-21T19:53:56 <jonasschnelli> haha
1352 2016-01-21T19:53:58 <wumpus> hehe
1353 2016-01-21T19:54:18 <cfields> gmaxwell: and headers.h :)
1354 2016-01-21T19:54:18 <wumpus> ok, any other topics? we're running out of time
1355 2016-01-21T19:54:21 <gmaxwell> wumpus: The solution is to make everything so wonderful that even you will want a shorter cycle. :) Core is not there yet.
1356 2016-01-21T19:54:24 <jtimon> hehe, ok, if wumpus willing is not going to do 4 months then the topic is solved for now
1357 2016-01-21T19:55:29 <jtimon> no more topics? end meeting?
1358 2016-01-21T19:55:30 <cfields> i proposed lib dependencies as a topic above, but there's really no need to do that here. we can discuss later
1359 2016-01-21T19:55:34 <sipa> gmaxwell: ACK on making things wonderful
1360 2016-01-21T19:55:38 <sdaftuar> +1
1361 2016-01-21T19:55:42 <btcdrak> +2
1362 2016-01-21T19:55:48 <wumpus> #endmeeting
1363 2016-01-21T19:55:48 <lightningbot`> Meeting ended Thu Jan 21 19:55:48 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
1364 2016-01-21T19:55:48 <lightningbot`> Minutes: http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-dev/2016/bitcoin-dev.2016-01-21-18.59.html
1365 2016-01-21T19:55:48 <lightningbot`> Minutes (text): http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-dev/2016/bitcoin-dev.2016-01-21-18.59.txt
1366 2016-01-21T19:55:48 <lightningbot`> Log: http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-dev/2016/bitcoin-dev.2016-01-21-18.59.log.html
1367 2016-01-21T19:55:59 <btcdrak> wumpus: hole in one
1368 2016-01-21T19:56:11 <maaku> Did it right this time!
1369 2016-01-21T19:56:18 <jonasschnelli> F.I.Y: I'm 99% offline in February (till ~22 feb., vacation)
1370 2016-01-21T19:56:24 <gmaxwell> Hurray!
1371 2016-01-21T19:56:28 <wumpus> have fun jonasschnelli !
1372 2016-01-21T19:56:40 <gmaxwell> opps that was a hurray at the correct use of the bot, not jonasschnelli being gone.
1373 2016-01-21T19:56:51 <jonasschnelli> haha... yes. Got this. :)
1374 2016-01-21T19:56:52 *** kangx has joined #bitcoin-dev
1375 2016-01-21T19:57:06 <btcdrak> cfields: did you manage to move that patch to depends-sources/ on the server?
1376 2016-01-21T19:57:06 *** kangx has quit IRC
1377 2016-01-21T19:57:12 *** zookolaptop has quit IRC
1378 2016-01-21T19:57:14 <cfields> jonasschnelli: where to? still not the US, i assume? :)
1379 2016-01-21T19:57:31 <cfields> btcdrak: oh, no. i thought you did. can do if you'd like?
1380 2016-01-21T19:57:40 <btcdrak> cfields: yes please :)
1381 2016-01-21T19:57:46 <cfields> ok
1382 2016-01-21T19:57:46 <jtimon> cfields: what do you wanted to talk about related to lib dependencies?
1383 2016-01-21T19:57:54 <btcdrak> cfields: I dont have access to the server
1384 2016-01-21T19:58:19 <jonasschnelli> cfields: No. Not us. Beach in Africa.
1385 2016-01-21T19:58:42 <cfields> jtimon: internal deps. sdaftuar ran into a problem due to their inter-connectedness. i'm wondering what jonasschnelli's intentions are for the future there
1386 2016-01-21T19:59:11 *** kgk has joined #bitcoin-dev
1387 2016-01-21T19:59:17 <jonasschnelli> cfields, jtimon: can you elaborate this a bit more?
1388 2016-01-21T19:59:35 <jonasschnelli> sorry, explain
1389 2016-01-21T19:59:40 <jtimon> jonasschnelli: I was just curious, I don't know about this
1390 2016-01-21T19:59:59 <bsm117532> On the C++11 topic, I brought up in https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6899 that std::auto_ptr is deprecated, and we should replace it with std::unique_ptr for C++11. Bitcoin's usage of auto_ptr doesn't actually trigger the difference in semantics, AFAICT.
1391 2016-01-21T20:00:31 <jonasschnelli> cfields: what do you excactly mean with internal deps? Stuff line univalue?
1392 2016-01-21T20:00:36 <jonasschnelli> s/line/like
1393 2016-01-21T20:00:42 <bsm117532> Is the goal to compile with c++11 by default?
1394 2016-01-21T20:01:12 <cfields> jonasschnelli: a while ago i believe you were working on reducing core's dependency on the wallet?
1395 2016-01-21T20:01:27 *** brson has joined #bitcoin-dev
1396 2016-01-21T20:01:31 <cfields> (so that it's essentially a 1-way dependency)
1397 2016-01-21T20:01:34 <jonasschnelli> cfields: ah.. yes. This is a good point.
1398 2016-01-21T20:01:48 <jonasschnelli> We should make a graph on internal dependencis.
1399 2016-01-21T20:01:52 <maaku> @bsm117532 c++11 only
1400 2016-01-21T20:02:03 <bsm117532> Yay!
1401 2016-01-21T20:02:04 <jonasschnelli> adhesion of classes / files.
1402 2016-01-21T20:02:09 <bsm117532> maaku: Then I'll make a PR with that change.
1403 2016-01-21T20:02:25 <cfields> jonasschnelli: yes.
1404 2016-01-21T20:02:27 <jonasschnelli> The wallet should not interact with the core allover the code
1405 2016-01-21T20:02:37 <maaku> @bsm117532 we're not there yet!
1406 2016-01-21T20:02:41 <jonasschnelli> There should be a clean API, even if its running in the same process
1407 2016-01-21T20:02:56 <cfields> bsm117532: we're not ready for that change yet. and auto_ptr is deprecated, but still fully valid for c++11. so that can happily wait until it's enforced.
1408 2016-01-21T20:03:09 <cfields> jonasschnelli: yes, agreed. very much so :)
1409 2016-01-21T20:03:26 *** kgk has quit IRC
1410 2016-01-21T20:03:35 <bsm117532> Okeydokey.
1411 2016-01-21T20:03:52 <cfields> jonasschnelli: mind poking at sdaftuar's PR? It's a very interesting example of inter-dependencies causing trouble.
1412 2016-01-21T20:04:03 <jonasschnelli> #?
1413 2016-01-21T20:04:07 <cfields> (sdaftuar: still around? which one was it?)
1414 2016-01-21T20:04:22 *** brg444 has joined #bitcoin-dev
1415 2016-01-21T20:04:28 *** wumpus has quit IRC
1416 2016-01-21T20:04:52 <jtimon> jonasschnelli: I was doing a partial graph with some of the internal dependencies touching consensus critical code for my "libconsensus plan document with words and pictures", simple UML between modules (.o) and building packages, it's a mess right now because I changed my mind about the stages of the plan while writing it, but maybe some of that can be reused/improved for other documentation
1417 2016-01-21T20:04:59 *** jcorgan has left #bitcoin-dev
1418 2016-01-21T20:05:22 <jonasschnelli> jtimon: Nice. Do you know where I can find it?
1419 2016-01-21T20:05:22 <jtimon> I'm using plantUML, which I find pretty simple and can export to pictures or latex
1420 2016-01-21T20:05:44 <jonasschnelli> UML is very nice... but our code is not really OO. :)
1421 2016-01-21T20:05:58 <jtimon> jonasschnelli: you can't find it yet, it's kind of embarrasing at this stage
1422 2016-01-21T20:06:02 <jonasschnelli> cfields: he only has two open PRs https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pulls/sdaftuar
1423 2016-01-21T20:06:13 *** cloudnthings has quit IRC
1424 2016-01-21T20:06:14 <jonasschnelli> jtimon: okay...
1425 2016-01-21T20:06:30 <jonasschnelli> jtimon: What was the resume of C or C++? Was that once discussed?
1426 2016-01-21T20:07:31 <jtimon> jonasschnelli: I'm not actually doing a class diagram, just a component diagram http://plantuml.com/component.html (although plantUML nicely let you mix most of the UML diagram types [I guess not sequence diagrams])
1427 2016-01-21T20:07:38 <cfields> jonasschnelli: not sure which it was now :(
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1432 2016-01-21T20:10:36 <jtimon> jonasschnelli: since the C vs C++ discussion seemed endless, I thought "ok, instead of a C compatible API for CBlockIndex and coins.o, I'll do C++ interfaces first (see jtimon/libconsensus-p2) and then a C compatible API that is just used to create one implementation of the C++ API unde the hood (see WIP jtimon/libconsensus-p2)"
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1434 2016-01-21T20:11:32 <jtimon> of course now the C-to-CPP-API workaraound now losses memory and it's being a little bit more complicated than I expected
1435 2016-01-21T20:11:43 <jonasschnelli> jtimon: Yes. I think this is a good approach. You probably want a C wrapper for the C++ code and not the oposit.
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1437 2016-01-21T20:11:55 <jonasschnelli> Because most code is already available in C++
1438 2016-01-21T20:12:18 <jtimon> the simplest solution would be to just use the C API instead of the C++ one internally in the consensus code, but I'll try to find something less "controversial"
1439 2016-01-21T20:12:53 <sipa> sorry, i really wish i could contribute to this discussion
1440 2016-01-21T20:13:03 <jtimon> jonasschnelli: I actually think that the CPP wraper on top of the C would be simpler now, but as said it's still a work in progress
1441 2016-01-21T20:13:04 <sipa> but i have more urgent things to do now
1442 2016-01-21T20:13:57 <jonasschnelli> jtimon: but CPP on top of C would require to rewrite most base stuff CTransaction, etc. in C?
1443 2016-01-21T20:14:08 <jtimon> I mean, I'm coding "translator wrappers" in both directions but using the C API internally just seems simpler at this point (although nothing is done in that regard within libconsensus-p2)
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1449 2016-01-21T20:15:11 <jtimon> jonasschnelli: no, the CTransaction CBlockaHeader stuff etc is left alone, but the BlockIndex and coins.o stuff are interfaces to storage
1450 2016-01-21T20:15:35 <jtimon> that's why they need to be exposed in the the C API
1451 2016-01-21T20:16:21 <jtimon> CTransaction is just a void* and the length in the C API, it doesn't care about CTransaction
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1454 2016-01-21T20:17:53 <jtimon> sipa it's fine I wish I had the libconsensus-p3 more advanced for today, but the new computer is being really distracting...hopefully next week I'll have more mature code to show around
1455 2016-01-21T20:18:14 <Altoidnerd> will I be able to observe the sync-time reduction due to libsecp256k1 if I build bitcoind from master at the present
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1457 2016-01-21T20:18:46 <jtimon> and then, finally finish the doc with the rest of the proposed phases
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1462 2016-01-21T20:22:02 <cfields> Altoidnerd: testing 0.12-rc1 would be more helpful all-around (it includes libsecp) :)
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1469 2016-01-21T20:28:47 <Altoidnerd> cfields: Okay, I'll do that. Could you link me to the correct github branch, or a document on testing release candidates, or any place to start
1470 2016-01-21T20:29:43 <jtimon> Altoidnerd: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/tree/0.12
1471 2016-01-21T20:29:49 <jonasschnelli> Altoidnerd: official binaries are here: https://bitcoin.org/bin/bitcoin-core-0.12.0/test/
1472 2016-01-21T20:30:00 <jonasschnelli> (if you don't want to compile)
1473 2016-01-21T20:30:00 <cfields> ^^ thanks. beat me to it.
1474 2016-01-21T20:30:11 <jtimon> mhm, yeah, what I linked may contained things planned for 0.12.1
1475 2016-01-21T20:30:22 <jtimon> not sure
1476 2016-01-21T20:30:27 <jonasschnelli> Altoidnerd: if you have enough ram on your machine.. -dbcache is your performance buddy
1477 2016-01-21T20:30:54 <jonasschnelli> -dbcache=6000 (6GB cache) will really bost your initial sync (IBD)
1478 2016-01-21T20:30:58 <jonasschnelli> boost
1479 2016-01-21T20:31:07 <Altoidnerd> jtimon: 20 gb
1480 2016-01-21T20:31:54 <jonasschnelli> 20 GB ram or disk?
1481 2016-01-21T20:32:11 <Altoidnerd> jonasschnelli: I have 20GB RAM. Plenty of disc. Thanks for the links. I'm excited to try the new release.
1482 2016-01-21T20:32:41 <jonasschnelli> Altoidnerd: If you have a modern CPU, you can probably boostrap a new node <4h.
1483 2016-01-21T20:33:15 <Altoidnerd> jonasschnelli: I have several boxes spanning many generations.
1484 2016-01-21T20:33:22 <jonasschnelli> I did some tests with libsecp and on my Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E31245 @ 3.30GHz it took around 3.6 hours with -dbcache=6000
1485 2016-01-21T20:33:34 <jonasschnelli> (spinning disk)
1486 2016-01-21T20:33:43 <bsm117532> woah.
1487 2016-01-21T20:33:49 <Altoidnerd> 4hours is awesome
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1489 2016-01-21T20:35:20 <jtimon> is the sync time logged somewhere for benchmarking (or a reccommended way to benchmark ?)
1490 2016-01-21T20:35:36 <Diablo-D3> I wonder what the maximum dbcache size is
1491 2016-01-21T20:35:37 <jonasschnelli> jtimon: na.. did it myself.
1492 2016-01-21T20:35:41 * Diablo-D3 stares at 32gb server
1493 2016-01-21T20:36:06 <jonasschnelli> Diablo-D3: i guess > 6GB makes no sense with current UTXO set size
1494 2016-01-21T20:36:24 <Diablo-D3> aww
1495 2016-01-21T20:36:28 <Diablo-D3> but rams :(
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1497 2016-01-21T20:37:31 <jtimon> jonasschnelli I just mean something better than looking at the kitchen clock :p (probably something stupidly obvious to everyone else)
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1499 2016-01-21T20:38:43 <jonasschnelli> jtimon: kitchen clock is bad... because you need to watch it for 4h. :) ...
1500 2016-01-21T20:38:50 <Diablo-D3> raammmmssssss
1501 2016-01-21T20:38:52 <jonasschnelli> I just greped the debug.log
1502 2016-01-21T20:39:01 <Diablo-D3> I feel like the firefox comic
1503 2016-01-21T20:39:09 <Diablo-D3> where hes taking the cookies out of the machine
1504 2016-01-21T20:39:15 <jonasschnelli> Then compare the time up to a specific block height
1505 2016-01-21T20:39:25 <Altoidnerd> jtimon: about benchmarking, is there a way to make bitcoind be extremely verbose during sync? I normally time things this way
1506 2016-01-21T20:39:27 <Diablo-D3> and they're actual chocolate chip cookies
1507 2016-01-21T20:39:48 <jonasschnelli> Altoidnerd: -debug=bench
1508 2016-01-21T20:39:55 <jonasschnelli> But might slow down the sinc a bit
1509 2016-01-21T20:39:57 <jonasschnelli> sync
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1511 2016-01-21T20:40:34 <jonasschnelli> Altoidnerd: and also don't do a --enable-debug build when benachmarking.
1512 2016-01-21T20:40:45 <Altoidnerd> can always watch -n3 bitcoind "$someCommand" > mylog
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1514 2016-01-21T20:41:19 <jonasschnelli> yes... or "tail -f | grep <something>"
1515 2016-01-21T20:41:30 <jonasschnelli> tail -f debug.log
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1523 2016-01-21T20:53:57 <jtimon> jonasschnelli: thanks, I just grep debug.log too
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1527 2016-01-21T20:57:17 <rbf_dtf> So how do I verify the nsequence and know the transaction is rbf vulnerable ?
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1529 2016-01-21T20:58:03 <rbf_dtf> according to github's pull reqs there will be a rpc call for this... but in 0.13?
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1531 2016-01-21T20:58:52 <gmaxwell> rbf_dtf: in bitcoin core? if the transaction is BIP125 replacable it's show in listtransactions, in 0.12
1532 2016-01-21T20:59:10 <gmaxwell> like bip125-replaceable: yes
1533 2016-01-21T20:59:34 <rbf_dtf> Listtransactions shows all transactions right?
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1535 2016-01-21T20:59:50 <wumpus> isn't in rc1, but will be in rc2
1536 2016-01-21T20:59:53 <gmaxwell> rbf_dtf: though 'vunerable', to be pedantic _all_ unconfirmed transactions are potentially vulnerable to replacement, thats what _unconfirmed_ means.
1537 2016-01-21T21:00:02 <rbf_dtf> So I have to then filter all that bs that will be coming from a rpc call to identify?
1538 2016-01-21T21:00:18 <rbf_dtf> I'm well aware of the risk, I just want to minimize it as much as possible
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1540 2016-01-21T21:01:23 <gmaxwell> rbf_dtf: one can read the bip125-replacable flag the same way one reads the amount of the payment or the confirmation count; it's just another field in the listtransactions output, which is what you use to learn about a payment in the first place.
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1543 2016-01-21T21:02:19 <rbf_dtf> But that returns ALL payments, assuming I have a huge backlog of payments what then? Kind of unecessary processing being done
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1547 2016-01-21T21:03:09 <gmaxwell> rbf_dtf: it returns whatever range you want, it takes arguments. By default it returns the most recent 10.
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1549 2016-01-21T21:03:31 <wumpus> was it added to gettransaction?
1550 2016-01-21T21:03:38 <rbf_dtf> Didn't know of the arguments, I am using gettransaction, its simpler since I already know what Im searching for
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1552 2016-01-21T21:03:47 <wumpus> if so you can query it for one transaction as well
1553 2016-01-21T21:03:59 <gmaxwell> wumpus: yes.
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1558 2016-01-21T21:04:23 <rbf_dtf> ok great but before that, I am not going to upgrade to 0.12 right away
1559 2016-01-21T21:04:27 <gmaxwell> technically it was added to WalletTxToJSON.
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1561 2016-01-21T21:04:41 <rbf_dtf> I have many nodes and would rather do it gradually
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1565 2016-01-21T21:05:57 <wumpus> hm would be pretty easy to backport that to 0.11
1566 2016-01-21T21:06:00 <rbf_dtf> when I do upgrade all I will use permitrbf false but in the meantime I must check for this "quality" of transactions in another way , people mentioned nsequence on github, how do I check that in a rpc call?
1567 2016-01-21T21:06:23 <gmaxwell> rbf_dtf: setting permitrbf on your hosts will do nothing useful for you.
1568 2016-01-21T21:06:43 <rbf_dtf> Sure will, it will reject rbf transactions from mempool right?
1569 2016-01-21T21:07:11 <gmaxwell> No.
1570 2016-01-21T21:07:12 <wumpus> no, it avoids replacement
1571 2016-01-21T21:07:26 <wumpus> (it brings back the old behavior with regard to replacement)
1572 2016-01-21T21:07:31 <gmaxwell> rbf_dtf: if you're just trying to determine replacement risk looking at your local wallet, that more or less doesn't work; as anyone double spending will just send both spends concurrently.
1573 2016-01-21T21:08:12 *** ttttemp has joined #bitcoin-dev
1574 2016-01-21T21:08:13 <gmaxwell> (this is what virtually all doublespenders have done for years)
1575 2016-01-21T21:09:06 <rbf_dtf> Well I have access to nodes all over the world
1576 2016-01-21T21:09:48 <gmaxwell> okay, so just upgrade one to 0.12 and it will tell you when a transaction is replacable; just as your multiple nodes might let you know when there is a double spend.
1577 2016-01-21T21:10:42 <rbf_dtf> So then this permitrbf only applies to transactions initiated by my wallet or?
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1579 2016-01-21T21:10:57 <rbf_dtf> I don't know why I understood it'd just reject them altogether
1580 2016-01-21T21:10:57 <gmaxwell> (you can also check for yourself by looking at the sequence numbers, but probably better to not do it yourself.
1581 2016-01-21T21:11:24 <gmaxwell> rbf_dtf: no, bitcoin core doesn't currently have any ability to mark transactions as replacable.
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1584 2016-01-21T21:12:20 <gmaxwell> rbf_dtf: permitrbf just make the node behave like ~0.2 to 0.11: it won't perform the replacement, even when the transaction is marked as non-final.
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1586 2016-01-21T21:13:20 <rbf_dtf> So its a miner patch basically
1587 2016-01-21T21:13:29 <wumpus> yes it is for miners
1588 2016-01-21T21:13:54 <rbf_dtf> I'd like to dive into checking sequence numbers then, how do I start?
1589 2016-01-21T21:14:11 <gmaxwell> rbf_dtf: what software are you already using to handle transactions?
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1591 2016-01-21T21:15:03 <rbf_dtf> one that communicates with bitcoin-core through rpc
1592 2016-01-21T21:15:19 <rbf_dtf> Its a wrapper I made
1593 2016-01-21T21:17:05 <wumpus> every transaction input has a sequence number field, if this is < 0xffffffff for any input then the transaction is not final
1594 2016-01-21T21:17:55 <rbf_dtf> alright so with the output of gettransaction, parse every input and check for the sequence number field, thanks!
1595 2016-01-21T21:18:08 <gmaxwell> BIP125 specifically only triggers for <0xfffffffe but technically anything less than 0xffffffff is non-final ass wumpus says.
1596 2016-01-21T21:18:37 <gmaxwell> s/ass/as/ -- stupid keyboard.
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1598 2016-01-21T21:19:47 <rbf_dtf> actually gonna use listtransaction now since today I learn i can use arguments to return just 1 transaction should be faster to parse an int instead of a long string
1599 2016-01-21T21:19:51 <wumpus> if you already call gettransaction you can just as well pay attention to the 'bip125-replacable' field
1600 2016-01-21T21:20:10 <rbf_dtf> But I don't want to rush update wumpus
1601 2016-01-21T21:20:23 <wumpus> parsing the transaction and trawlling through sequence numbers is just extra work
1602 2016-01-21T21:20:35 <wumpus> but not rocket science, true
1603 2016-01-21T21:21:07 <gmaxwell> rbf_dtf: well you said you had a network of nodes for observing transactions, upgrading _one_ of them would be very prudent.
1604 2016-01-21T21:21:39 <gmaxwell> Otherwise you'll miss transactions rejected by older versions for unrelated reasons (due to changes in IsStandard rules, for example).
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1606 2016-01-21T21:22:06 <gmaxwell> (plus if there are any bugs in 0.12 that might effect you, it would be in your interest to discover and report them sooner. :) )
1607 2016-01-21T21:22:23 <wumpus> the code is here https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/policy/rbf.cpp#L6 , the check is indeed for 0xfffffffe not 0xffffffff as gmaxwell says
1608 2016-01-21T21:22:44 <rbf_dtf> Yeah its easy, anyother tips for improving my double spend security?
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1610 2016-01-21T21:23:02 <wumpus> don't use zero conf transactions
1611 2016-01-21T21:23:16 <gmaxwell> rbf_dtf: mose of those efforts are pretty ineffectual in any case, past expirence has shown them to be a waste of time.
1612 2016-01-21T21:23:23 <rbf_dtf> I will upgrade at least 2 gmaxwell, I also run master compiled from source on one of a local machine
1613 2016-01-21T21:24:00 <gmaxwell> The primary security against double spends comes from it just not being attractive for people to do it (for whatever incidence specific reason it is attractive).
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1616 2016-01-21T21:24:51 <rbf_dtf> Yes of course, I have handled thousands of transactions and only double spend was not a malevolent actor, just because someone wanted to prove a point
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1618 2016-01-21T21:25:05 <rbf_dtf> We have since improved the checks and he couldn't reliably replicate it
1619 2016-01-21T21:25:32 <gmaxwell> doubtful.
1620 2016-01-21T21:25:35 <rbf_dtf> But you can never count on everyone being benevolent I agree
1621 2016-01-21T21:25:44 <gmaxwell> But in any case, we don't have any more advice there. :)
1622 2016-01-21T21:26:51 <gmaxwell> rbf_dtf: yea you can't-- and as an example, finney attacks are undetectable and unpreventable; and have been used in the past to steal on the order of a million dollars.
1623 2016-01-21T21:27:12 <gmaxwell> (by undetectable I mean that no amount of monitoring increases your security against them)
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1628 2016-01-21T21:29:04 <Cocodude> Should 'bitcoin-cli getbalance "*"' ever return a negative number?
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1633 2016-01-21T21:31:19 <rbf_dtf> I don't have millions to lose, my transactions are pretty low value so I'll take this risk for the convenience of knowing poeple don't have to waste 10 minutes of their lives
1634 2016-01-21T21:32:41 <gmaxwell> rbf_dtf: sure then, thats fine-- and if so you can probably skip out on all the complexity that hardly improves your risk profile and trust that most customers won't cheat you.
1635 2016-01-21T21:34:01 <rbf_dtf> Neah I like improving stuff & writing code even if its a 0.1% improvement but thanks for all the help :)
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1637 2016-01-21T21:34:48 <kanzure> djat: hi
1638 2016-01-21T21:34:50 <gmaxwell> fair enough; though I hope you have enough interest to keep maintaining it as long as your service is available! :)
1639 2016-01-21T21:35:07 <djat> Hey kanzure tnx!
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1689 2016-01-21T22:25:35 <tripleslash> What is the .cookie file?
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1694 2016-01-21T22:33:05 <lazology> public void
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1697 2016-01-21T22:34:00 <lazology> block chain with node transfer code
1698 2016-01-21T22:35:10 <lazology> private
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1703 2016-01-21T22:37:42 <tripleslash> Nevermind, I figured it out. RPC authentication cookie.
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1721 2016-01-21T23:21:31 <xabbix> Why isn't the coinbase txid returned under the tx list when using getblock?
1722 2016-01-21T23:22:13 <xabbix> Is that on purpose?
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1724 2016-01-21T23:23:21 <xabbix> arg, it's there, sorry.
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