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154 2016-01-23T04:17:10 <jimtendo> jimtendo
155 2016-01-23T04:17:26 <jimtendo> ^ Ignore that. Was trying to do a Ctrl+F.
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163 2016-01-23T04:25:49 <qmm> is there a document describing the consensus rules all full nodes follow?
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166 2016-01-23T04:28:31 <Luke-Jr> qmm: yes, the Bitcoin Core source code
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169 2016-01-23T04:32:30 <jl2012> Is there any tool to sign a raw hash? giving a signature compatible to OP_CHECKSIG?
170 2016-01-23T04:32:58 <qmm> Luke-Jr: would you be willing to point me to specific files for this?
171 2016-01-23T04:33:32 <Luke-Jr> qmm: it's all over right now still
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186 2016-01-23T04:55:01 <qmm> Luke-Jr: it's not just in the https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/tree/master/src/consensus directory? would you be willing to point me to another file or directory not in the consensus directory which is part of the consensus rules full nodes follow?
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188 2016-01-23T04:57:46 <jl2012> is RFC6979 in bitcoind 0.12?
189 2016-01-23T04:57:58 <jl2012> is RFC6979 default in bitcoind 0.12?
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195 2016-01-23T05:06:17 <qmmm> still here, sorry about that
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205 2016-01-23T05:31:56 <Luke-Jr> qmmmain.cpp for example
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282 2016-01-23T08:54:25 <jonasschnelli> jl2012: yes. Bitcoin-core uses rfc6979 (https://github.com/bitcoin/secp256k1/blob/2bfb82b10edf0f0b0e366a12f94c8b21a914159d/src/secp256k1.c#L314)
283 2016-01-23T08:54:46 <jl2012> interesting....
284 2016-01-23T08:55:02 <jl2012> i have 2 signatures for the same thing
285 2016-01-23T08:55:13 <jl2012> they both claim they are RFC6979
286 2016-01-23T08:55:22 <jonasschnelli> jl2012: hah... very likely one is not. :)
287 2016-01-23T08:55:24 <jl2012> but not match
288 2016-01-23T08:55:31 <jonasschnelli> jl2012: done with libsecp256k1?
289 2016-01-23T08:55:40 <jonasschnelli> both sigs are valid?
290 2016-01-23T08:55:43 <jl2012> sipa's segwit branch
291 2016-01-23T08:55:47 <jl2012> both valid
292 2016-01-23T08:56:04 <jl2012> i guess it's libsecp256k1?
293 2016-01-23T08:56:29 <jl2012> the other implementation is from CodeShark
294 2016-01-23T08:56:33 <jonasschnelli> so... two different sigs for the *same* witness-tx-sighash? both valid against the same pubkey?
295 2016-01-23T08:56:40 <jl2012> yes
296 2016-01-23T08:56:45 <jonasschnelli> Interesting..
297 2016-01-23T08:57:05 <jl2012> something must be wrong
298 2016-01-23T08:57:06 <jonasschnelli> try to create a issue on libsecp256k1 and exactly list your steps.
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301 2016-01-23T09:00:52 <jl2012> https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/wXJkm80A/
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303 2016-01-23T09:02:31 <jl2012> this is the example in BIP143
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306 2016-01-23T09:06:36 <CodeShark> sipa used my test vectors
307 2016-01-23T09:06:51 <CodeShark> So strange if they don't match
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310 2016-01-23T09:10:29 <jl2012> can i ask bitcoind to verify a tx without sending to mempool?
311 2016-01-23T09:14:31 <CodeShark> I think you need to hack something up to be able to do that
312 2016-01-23T09:14:42 <CodeShark> There's no RPC
313 2016-01-23T09:14:48 <CodeShark> There should be :)
314 2016-01-23T09:15:51 <jl2012> anyway, i doubled checked. both are valid
315 2016-01-23T09:16:37 <CodeShark> sipa tested his implementation against mine and reported they agreed
316 2016-01-23T09:17:02 <CodeShark> So something must have broken in one of them
317 2016-01-23T09:17:33 <jl2012> https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/qFKiqUkO/
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323 2016-01-23T09:21:30 <CodeShark> jl2012: are the two signatures consistently different?
324 2016-01-23T09:21:44 <jl2012> yours is consistent
325 2016-01-23T09:22:01 <jl2012> for segwit, wait a moment
326 2016-01-23T09:22:09 <CodeShark> You mean bitcoind sometimes produces different sigs?
327 2016-01-23T09:22:19 <jl2012> need to test, wait a moment
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330 2016-01-23T09:24:47 <jl2012> also consistent
331 2016-01-23T09:25:13 <jl2012> someone must be wrong
332 2016-01-23T09:25:26 <jl2012> or both
333 2016-01-23T09:28:30 <CodeShark> I don't think mine changed since those tests other than forcing small S
334 2016-01-23T09:29:45 <jl2012> need someone to generate the sig independently
335 2016-01-23T09:31:27 <jl2012> https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/hOFUT6HT/
336 2016-01-23T09:31:37 <jl2012> CodeShark ^
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343 2016-01-23T09:38:12 <CodeShark> https://github.com/bitcoin/secp256k1/blob/master/src/secp256k1.c#L314
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345 2016-01-23T09:38:58 <CodeShark> That's sipas
346 2016-01-23T09:39:06 <CodeShark> Mine is https://github.com/ciphrex/mSIGNA/blob/segwit/deps/CoinCore/src/secp256k1_openssl.cpp#L390
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352 2016-01-23T09:44:40 <jl2012> or just malleability?
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382 2016-01-23T11:17:25 <proslogion> noobish Q: do SPV clients validate the transaction signatures or not? or some do and some don't ? thanks
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478 2016-01-23T14:43:44 <instagibbs> proslogion, they should be, yes. If they're not it's even further away from the original definition
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507 2016-01-23T16:11:58 <wallet42> what is the zoom meeting id?
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510 2016-01-23T16:14:56 <sturles> wallet42: This is from #bitcoin:
511 2016-01-23T16:14:56 <sturles> 16:47 < Luke-Jr> bitfury's round table thing: https://zoom.us/j/501638415?pwd=OhLGWGUM5WI%3D password 7788 --or-- +1 646 568 7788 (US Toll) or +1 415 762 9988 (US Toll) Meeting ID: 501 638 415
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558 2016-01-23T17:24:48 <AdrianG> is it happening right now?
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561 2016-01-23T17:28:14 <AdrianG> its locked by the host, damn
562 2016-01-23T17:30:53 <bsm1175321> There's an article today about them advocating for a Bitcoin Foundation at Davos
563 2016-01-23T17:31:10 <bsm1175321> https://medium.com/@BitFuryGroup/bitfury-ceo-calls-for-creation-of-bitcoin-blockchain-consortium-9533987949aa#.olrar8qlb
564 2016-01-23T17:33:22 <AdrianG> wow.
565 2016-01-23T17:33:45 <AdrianG> inb4: miner cartel
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567 2016-01-23T17:34:58 <AdrianG> they want faster modification of consensus rules.
568 2016-01-23T17:35:56 <proslogion> bsm117532: that dude's opinion is Bitcoin should be a democratic currency blahblah
569 2016-01-23T17:36:25 <AdrianG> ?
570 2016-01-23T17:36:35 <proslogion> Valery, Bitfury's ceo
571 2016-01-23T17:36:46 <AdrianG> really.
572 2016-01-23T17:37:07 <proslogion> yeah, he said in a recent blog
573 2016-01-23T17:37:32 <AdrianG> we should also democratically vote on the value of pi.
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576 2016-01-23T17:41:48 <owowo> that's gonna be funny with all those Bitcointrolls..
577 2016-01-23T17:43:02 <bsm1175321> Yeah let's hard fork in an interest rate controlled by Davos...
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579 2016-01-23T17:44:24 <AdrianG> bsm1175321: i wouldnt put it past miners.
580 2016-01-23T17:44:41 <AdrianG> i guess its gonna come sooner than i expected.
581 2016-01-23T17:44:43 <bsm1175321> Time to decentralize mining.
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583 2016-01-23T17:45:09 <bsm1175321> Well the bickering about hard-forking block size is giving the miners room to throw their weight around.
584 2016-01-23T17:45:34 <owowo> hard fork to sha512 ;)
585 2016-01-23T17:46:03 <bsm1175321> It was quite clear at Scaling Bitcoin that they wanted nothing to do with that decision. But all the bickering afterwards...because Scaling explicitly said no decisions would be made. I think that was a mistake...
586 2016-01-23T17:46:36 <AdrianG> owowo: might as well fork to a very different algo entirely.
587 2016-01-23T17:46:47 <belcher> scaling bitcoin doesnt have a mandate or power to make decisions
588 2016-01-23T17:46:52 <belcher> its only a discussion forum
589 2016-01-23T17:47:03 <AdrianG> owowo: something like https://github.com/tromp/cuckoo
590 2016-01-23T17:47:16 <bsm1175321> Scaling didn't *attempt* to make a decision. It was explicitly banned. They didn't have to do that...
591 2016-01-23T17:47:29 <belcher> if scaling made a decision, why should people listen?
592 2016-01-23T17:47:38 <belcher> its not like the economic consensus went to scaling bitcoin
593 2016-01-23T17:48:27 <AdrianG> exchanges didnt go?
594 2016-01-23T17:48:56 <proslogion> AdrianG: owowo bsm1175321 it already has the desired effect
595 2016-01-23T17:49:07 <AdrianG> proslogion: what does
596 2016-01-23T17:49:16 <proslogion> the hard fork to sha512 thing
597 2016-01-23T17:49:24 <proslogion> sent a shock wave among Chinese miners
598 2016-01-23T17:49:33 <AdrianG> proslogion: oic
599 2016-01-23T17:49:54 <bsm1175321> Don't hard fork. Make a new coin. You can import the utxo set if you want. But it's not fair to deceive nodes and miners by hard forking.
600 2016-01-23T17:50:01 <AdrianG> proslogion: a cartelization like bitfury proposes can weaken such eventualities.
601 2016-01-23T17:50:17 <AdrianG> proslogion: imagine, all big exchanges, and all bigger miners agree on something and fork to that.
602 2016-01-23T17:50:29 <bsm1175321> yikes
603 2016-01-23T17:50:31 <AdrianG> proslogion: that would be much harder to overcome with an algo change.
604 2016-01-23T17:50:36 <AdrianG> and it is going to happen.
605 2016-01-23T17:51:06 <bsm1175321> Another thing that is clear: the miners don't employ devs. Unless they hire some of the lead core devs, I don't think they'll have the balls to pull it off.
606 2016-01-23T17:51:16 <bsm1175321> They'll likely screw it up in even worse ways.
607 2016-01-23T17:51:23 <proslogion> AdrianG: actually, at least mining within China is still reasonably decentralized, that's part of the reason why the threat worked
608 2016-01-23T17:51:29 <AdrianG> bsm1175321: you can trivially hire very competent people with corporate money.
609 2016-01-23T17:51:47 <bsm1175321> AdrianG: You must be one of those business types.
610 2016-01-23T17:52:02 <AdrianG> bsm1175321: do you really think there is nobody qualified?
611 2016-01-23T17:52:07 <proslogion> AdrianG: not really in Bitcoin's case, where the porblems are pretty unique
612 2016-01-23T17:52:14 <bsm1175321> AdrianG: didn't say that, but bitcoin is a complex pile of stuff.
613 2016-01-23T17:52:20 <proslogion> but yeah there are other people
614 2016-01-23T17:52:23 <proslogion> e.g., btcd
615 2016-01-23T17:52:28 <AdrianG> bsm1175321: sure, they'll need time to get up to speed.
616 2016-01-23T17:52:32 <bsm1175321> The bitcoin space is FULL of suits who they can just hire the devs, and they're all floundering.
617 2016-01-23T17:52:42 <bsm1175321> Let's call them R3 for instance.
618 2016-01-23T17:52:47 <sturles> The big exchanges and BitPay, etc, could easily agree to use a common sidechain for transactions between them, and get the big miners to merge-mine it. If they want to without harming bitcoin.
619 2016-01-23T17:53:06 <AdrianG> bsm1175321: im talking about actual big corporate budgets. they could easily dump a billion into development.
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621 2016-01-23T17:53:34 <bsm1175321> Dumping billions into development doesn't usually have the desired effect...
622 2016-01-23T17:53:44 <bsm1175321> Not that it's impossible...
623 2016-01-23T17:54:02 <AdrianG> bsm1175321: you could hire people qualified enough, idk how succesful it would be.
624 2016-01-23T17:54:14 <AdrianG> bsm1175321: plenty of people work for money.
625 2016-01-23T17:54:21 <JeromeLegoupil> sturles isn't that what the Liquid sidechains is for ?
626 2016-01-23T17:54:31 <AdrianG> you think every hedge fund quant is working there for ideology?
627 2016-01-23T17:54:43 <AdrianG> sturles: what if they want to control it?
628 2016-01-23T17:54:53 <AdrianG> this isnt about "not harming bitcoin", its another power grab
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630 2016-01-23T17:56:23 <AdrianG> they chose Davos, out of all places.
631 2016-01-23T17:57:27 <instagibbs> Liquid is exactly that use-case. And if it's just between financial entities, no need for merge-mining.
632 2016-01-23T17:58:00 <bsm1175321> Bitcoin is becoming very centralized. It's time for a new crypto-currency with better scaling properties...
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634 2016-01-23T17:58:19 * bsm1175321 goes back to work...
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636 2016-01-23T18:02:08 <sturles> I guess the demand for higher capacity just isn't there yet, or the exchanges would have embraced the sidechain.
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640 2016-01-23T18:04:05 <haakonn> doesn't liquid have a long line of exchanges signed up?
641 2016-01-23T18:05:09 <maaku> sturles: why do you think they haven't?
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643 2016-01-23T18:12:02 * sturles has no idea
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649 2016-01-23T18:23:45 <Lauda> ?prev
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651 2016-01-23T18:23:49 <Lauda> Oops.
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699 2016-01-23T19:59:32 <maaku> could whomever is maintaining the segwit branch (sipa? btcdrak?) open a pull request please? I'm quite concerned that we have system integration going on for a feature that hasn't been subjected to our open peer review process
700 2016-01-23T20:01:24 <gmaxwell> maaku: what are you talking about?
701 2016-01-23T20:03:24 <gmaxwell> The feature is still in design testing, it shouldn't be a pull request against bitcoin core-- making it one is likely to have no additional effect or, worse, prematurely exhaust reviewer cycles for something which is not believed to be complete yet. --- putting it on the incubator repository, which was specifically created for larger soft forks, would make sense.
702 2016-01-23T20:04:28 *** mpmcsweeney has joined #bitcoin-dev
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704 2016-01-23T20:06:12 <maaku> gmaxwell: it is not in design testing. not now that there is widespread integration going on by wallet providers on the segnet3 network
705 2016-01-23T20:07:25 <maaku> I had no qualms about the status of segwit development UNTIL the announcement of segnet3 as a public integration testing environment
706 2016-01-23T20:07:43 <maaku> if segwit is still undergoing design review, this has NOT been communicated
707 2016-01-23T20:08:09 <gmaxwell> Ah. Okay. Sounds like some improved communication is needed.
708 2016-01-23T20:08:16 <jonasschnelli> I agree, a PR would be nice,... let me do it.
709 2016-01-23T20:08:39 <maaku> furthermore, I would argue that a PR is the proper place to get design review, as not all stakeholders pay attention to sipa's branches
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711 2016-01-23T20:09:00 <maaku> we've had long-lived PRs before
712 2016-01-23T20:09:06 <jonasschnelli> code is here: https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/tree/segwit
713 2016-01-23T20:09:20 <jonasschnelli> Not sure if i can pr: This branch is 120 commits ahead, 232 commits behind bitcoin:master.
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716 2016-01-23T20:12:51 <gmaxwell> maaku: we've also had many process failures due to PRs showing up too early, reviewers trip up over immaturity then are slow to rereview.
717 2016-01-23T20:14:08 <gmaxwell> Months back I specifically created a seperate repository for the development of larger consensus changes (bitcoin/bitcoin-incubator) to get a medium level of public review and coordination; while reducing that trap.
718 2016-01-23T20:14:43 <gmaxwell> but it sounds to me that the issue you're rasing is more about the implementor expectations than about the segwit code itself.
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720 2016-01-23T20:17:10 <maaku> Both
721 2016-01-23T20:17:37 <maaku> It should also not be the case that we wait until design review is "done" before opening a PR
722 2016-01-23T20:17:43 <maaku> That's cabal development
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732 2016-01-23T20:31:59 <gmaxwell> maaku: a PR is not the right venue to do large scale design review for complex features.
733 2016-01-23T20:32:25 <gmaxwell> (replace open a PR with work in the public, duh, I agree)
734 2016-01-23T20:32:46 <jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: I guess people start to look for the public announced segnet (segwit testnet) code and they look in github.
735 2016-01-23T20:32:50 <jonasschnelli> on github
736 2016-01-23T20:33:10 <jonasschnelli> It should be available somewhere there (as PR would probably be best).
737 2016-01-23T20:33:34 <gmaxwell> jonasschnelli: most people that know how to run code from git also don't know how to take code from a PR (especially when it doesn't apply to master)
738 2016-01-23T20:33:36 <jonasschnelli> Otherwise another reddit post about communication pops up. :)
739 2016-01-23T20:33:58 <jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: but maybe they just want to look into it...
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741 2016-01-23T20:34:32 <jonasschnelli> And sipa could make the segwit his main branch (still "lows").
742 2016-01-23T20:34:55 <gmaxwell> I don't agree, we can't have our own communication mechenism be github PRs, that would be awful. Thats already probably contributing to the belief that core doesn't tell anyone what its working on. The interface is inscrutable to people who aren't actively using it.
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747 2016-01-23T20:40:08 <jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: but shouldn't the code of a public announce test network somewhere be available? It could be a link to sipas branch on bitcoincore.org...
748 2016-01-23T20:43:52 <gmaxwell> jonasschnelli: it is, it was in the announcement. https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2016-January/012195.html
749 2016-01-23T20:44:19 <jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: that's a point,...
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751 2016-01-23T20:50:12 <frankenmint> inscrutable???? this is very enjoyable to lurk and read btw
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759 2016-01-23T20:57:04 <frankenmint> I know I could just lookup the word, I said that because I would not have expected it to be said was all...please carry on everyone
760 2016-01-23T20:59:44 <gmaxwell> frankenmint: I've had people ask about things, in person, and over their shoulder I've guided them to the PR in the repo, and they get lost in the big lists. I'm not complaining about it, but rather saying that it's not an ideal communications medium to a general audience.
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762 2016-01-23T21:00:04 <gmaxwell> Most people are not accustomed to dealing with menus with a fanout higher than a half dozen items.
763 2016-01-23T21:00:13 <frankenmint> I'm in agreement with that
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765 2016-01-23T21:02:21 <frankenmint> to hypothetically do what you would propose would I even be able to checkout a pr? I thought I could only checkout branches and would need to merge them manually myself as Im not even commiter to merge locally?
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779 2016-01-23T21:25:16 <maaku> gmaxwell then what is the communication mechanism for stakeholder review of segwit and proposed modifications?
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781 2016-01-23T21:26:47 <gmaxwell> Least formally (best to use first): talk about it in the segwit-dev irc channel; more formally: send email to the list, and comment on the BIPs.
782 2016-01-23T21:26:48 <maaku> Right now it is not happening in the open. If not a github PR, then where?
783 2016-01-23T21:27:12 <maaku> Why a separate channel?
784 2016-01-23T21:27:45 <gmaxwell> to avoid flooding the channel here with it and preventing all other discussion.
785 2016-01-23T21:28:18 <gmaxwell> (not everyone is interested in every bit of discussion about it right now)
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787 2016-01-23T21:29:59 <maaku> I fundamentally disagree -- there are 500 stakeholders listening on this channel and the logs reviewed. Being a part of the roadmap it is fully on topic
788 2016-01-23T21:30:25 <maaku> The #segwit-dev channel is fine for integration testing
789 2016-01-23T21:30:59 <gmaxwell> maaku: the traffic discussing segwit can outpace the normal discussion in this channel 10:1.
790 2016-01-23T21:31:34 <gmaxwell> please we cannot operate with everything dumped into a single place; and to characterize that as "not in the open" is incredibly counterproductive, and untrue.
791 2016-01-23T21:32:39 <maaku> What about the other question -- what's the process for submitting a PR against the segwit work?
792 2016-01-23T21:33:51 <maaku> (I will not participate in any discussion of consensus code changes on #segwit-dev, on principle.)
793 2016-01-23T21:34:05 <gmaxwell> dunno, as pieter what he'd prefer. (having a PR on core wouldn't help that, because PRs on PRs are not well handled in github.
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796 2016-01-23T21:36:48 <gmaxwell> maaku: I expect that you're going to have a hard time discussing it then, since discussion abou segwit internals are going to continue to be directed out of this channel.
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807 2016-01-23T21:47:33 <Lauda> Luke-jr any tl;dW from Consensus round table in Miami?
808 2016-01-23T21:47:39 <Lauda> Luke-Jr*
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810 2016-01-23T21:48:14 <owowo> maybe one should do it like when a new pope is voted.
811 2016-01-23T21:48:53 <owowo> there where time it toook a very long time to get an Consensus for a new pope
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813 2016-01-23T21:50:31 <owowo> so the cardinals where immured to speed up the consensus process, with water an bread only, sped up the time for the white smoke
814 2016-01-23T21:52:13 <gmaxwell> owowo: in Miami they pioneered a similar approach: announce an event with basically a days notice.
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816 2016-01-23T21:52:36 <maaku> Why is segwit consensus changes OT for this channel?
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819 2016-01-23T21:52:54 <maaku> This is not #bitcoin-core-dev
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821 2016-01-23T21:53:55 <gmaxwell> This is not #segwit-dev either. Because, as mentioned, there is enough volume there to eclipse this channel; and not everyone is actively interested in it all the time.
822 2016-01-23T21:54:27 <gmaxwell> No less that ECC crypto stuff going into #secp256k1.
823 2016-01-23T21:55:03 <gmaxwell> I don't think every segwit thing needs to go to segwit-dev, but extended discussions probably do.
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862 2016-01-23T22:58:10 <maaku> Most of the volume there is integration efforts. That's fine. I just think discussion of over engineering design of segwit itself is better done here.
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878 2016-01-23T23:13:57 <Chris_Stewart_5> Does anyone have any idea what BN_bn2mpi
879 2016-01-23T23:14:01 <Chris_Stewart_5> stands for?
880 2016-01-23T23:14:13 <Chris_Stewart_5> it is in one of the script test cases
881 2016-01-23T23:15:40 <Chris_Stewart_5> here is the entire comment: "The following is useful for checking implementations of BN_bn2mpi"
882 2016-01-23T23:17:46 <Anduck> https://www.openssl.org/docs/manmaster/crypto/BN_bn2bin.html
883 2016-01-23T23:18:44 *** tjader has quit IRC
884 2016-01-23T23:18:49 <Chris_Stewart_5> thanks
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888 2016-01-23T23:21:24 <Anduck> yw
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