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73 2016-02-02T01:54:33 <kanzure> bip-biprevised is good work, thank you
74 2016-02-02T01:54:40 <kanzure> er, Luke-Jr ^
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109 2016-02-02T02:52:39 <mrkent> anyone got segwit testnet coins?
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111 2016-02-02T02:52:45 <mrkent> greenaddress faucet down
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129 2016-02-02T03:17:57 <bsm1175321> Any testnet coin should do, no?
130 2016-02-02T03:18:11 <bsm1175321> Then just send it to a segwit address...
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132 2016-02-02T03:20:17 <gevs> can easily watch my boxes network activity using linux? (trying to see bitcoin activity as i have activated my testnet node)
133 2016-02-02T03:20:42 <gevs> *how can I
134 2016-02-02T03:21:10 <mrkent_> which branch should I build to test segwit?
135 2016-02-02T03:23:11 <aj> mrkent_: https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commits/segwit is current i think
136 2016-02-02T03:23:41 <mrkent_> aj: ty, segwit2 failed on osx
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147 2016-02-02T03:52:07 <mrkent_> wasn't able to build segwit on osx: http://ix.io/o58
148 2016-02-02T03:55:35 <aj> mrkent_: :(
149 2016-02-02T03:56:17 <aj> mrkent_: i've copied your comment to #segwit-dev ; you could join that channel if you want to followup further maybe
150 2016-02-02T03:56:43 <mrkent_> thanks. wasn't aware of that
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186 2016-02-02T05:06:02 <jl2012> Question about this: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1526/files#diff-7ec3c68a81efff79b6ca22ac1f1eabbaR1845
187 2016-02-02T05:07:15 <jl2012> Does the highlighted line mean that the nHeight is prepended by an PUSH opcode?
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190 2016-02-02T05:09:57 <jl2012> In the very very far future, probably after the Sun is dead, it will start with a OP_PUSHDATA1?
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192 2016-02-02T05:13:53 <kefkius> jl2012: It would have to be preceded by a PUSH opcode. So yeah it is technically true that block height will eventually be a number so large it requires a PUSHDATA1
193 2016-02-02T05:14:41 <jl2012> thanks
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267 2016-02-02T07:19:26 <Luke-Jr> hmm, I wonder if there's a way to get a N-of-20 p2sh multisig by putting the keys outside the serialised script and checking the overall hash..
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269 2016-02-02T07:20:31 <Luke-Jr> sadly, I can't think of a way that doesn't use disabled opcodes
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584 2016-02-02T13:40:34 <instagibbs> bsm1175321, uhh no it's a different testnet :P and not a sidechain
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596 2016-02-02T14:10:20 <wumpus> gevs: what level of detail do you need?
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599 2016-02-02T14:12:17 <wumpus> wireshark and tcpdump are the best tool to get details of every packet, there's tools like ntop that keep statistics, or if yo udon't even need that you could roll a 'ghetto' bandwidth monitoring script that read out and parse the number of RX/TX bytes from ifconfig
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606 2016-02-02T14:22:21 <gevs> wumpus, tx for wireshark it does what i need :) i simply needed monitoring a little bit to be able to tell the activity
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723 2016-02-02T17:30:01 <jtimon> CodeShark: Luke-Jr: I'm reading the classification in bip123 and I must say that apart from being informational, bip99 intends to be a hardfork as well (see the code section)
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766 2016-02-02T18:15:05 <TD-Linux> is anyone else getting moderated mails out of order?
767 2016-02-02T18:15:24 <TD-Linux> a couple of times I've seen replies to a mail, which itself only passes moderation hours later
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837 2016-02-02T19:10:16 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: note that zero-value-OP_RETURN-in-payment-protocol was already assigned BIP 74
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902 2016-02-02T19:17:49 <Luke-Jr> jtimon: "uncontroversial" doesn't have the same meaning. I don't know a synonym for "consensus" which is a perfect fit.
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904 2016-02-02T19:18:21 <jtimon> Luke-Jr: but do you agree that is problematic that we have one term for 2 concepts?
905 2016-02-02T19:18:37 <Luke-Jr> well, it is to some extent the same concept
906 2016-02-02T19:18:51 <Luke-Jr> just used in different contexts
907 2016-02-02T19:18:51 <jtimon> somhow I feared that
908 2016-02-02T19:19:19 <jtimon> one consensus is between computer programs, the other is between people
909 2016-02-02T19:19:58 <jtimon> manetary user base agreement?
910 2016-02-02T19:20:11 <jtimon> s/manetary/monetary
911 2016-02-02T19:20:19 <Luke-Jr> the consensus between computer programs is really between people too ;)
912 2016-02-02T19:20:55 *** job_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
913 2016-02-02T19:21:00 <jtimon> having a single term greatly increases confusion and complicates discussions IMO
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915 2016-02-02T19:25:02 <Luke-Jr> jtimon: perhaps "concord" would work with some rephrasing?
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923 2016-02-02T19:25:47 <Luke-Jr> of course, the trolls will accuse us of something if we try to change to a new term now..
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929 2016-02-02T19:29:04 <kefkius> The trolls will accuse us of deceit if we don't :P
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931 2016-02-02T19:30:25 <jtimon> yep, never mind the trolls, they'll find ways to accuse us anyway
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933 2016-02-02T19:32:49 <jtimon> Luke-Jr: I'm not a native speaker, but concord doesn't sound bad to me
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935 2016-02-02T19:33:29 <Luke-Jr> I'm actually pondering if using "Concord" for the protocol would work better.
936 2016-02-02T19:33:52 <Luke-Jr> lots of people get confused when we talk about the "consensus rules" or "consensus layer" by thinking they need to actively maintain consensus
937 2016-02-02T19:34:03 <Luke-Jr> rather than be established by consensus
938 2016-02-02T19:34:20 <Luke-Jr> so making it the "concord layer/rules" might solve both issues with one change
939 2016-02-02T19:34:38 <kefkius> With 'concord' you could call any implemented BIP a concordat
940 2016-02-02T19:34:40 * jtimon looks at https://github.com/jtimon/bitcoin/tree/libconsensus-p3 and then looks back to Luke-Jr
941 2016-02-02T19:34:57 <Luke-Jr> ?
942 2016-02-02T19:35:00 <Luke-Jr> kefkius: heh
943 2016-02-02T19:35:32 <jtimon> well I believe changing the term in all the codebases that use it is far more expensive than changing bips
944 2016-02-02T19:36:30 <Luke-Jr> only 249 lines in Core, most of which are just token names
945 2016-02-02T19:36:57 <Luke-Jr> even the library could be renamed without disrupting anything at this point
946 2016-02-02T19:37:03 <jtimon> as said, I'm happy to change bip99's "uncontroversial", unless it is change to consensus (I'm not even sure bip99 would make any sense with such a find-and-replace)
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948 2016-02-02T19:37:39 <jtimon> "only" 249 lines in one project vs how many lines in your bip?
949 2016-02-02T19:37:55 <Luke-Jr> shrug. point is the cost is low either way
950 2016-02-02T19:38:09 <Luke-Jr> and changing it in the human side doesn't solve the other problem
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952 2016-02-02T19:38:37 <jtimon> I think you are actually understimating the costs of changing the code
953 2016-02-02T19:39:35 <jtimon> well, it solves some communication problems I believe
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955 2016-02-02T19:39:58 <jtimon> not sure what problem you mean
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958 2016-02-02T19:40:56 <jtimon> I think it could make your BIP more clear, for example
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962 2016-02-02T19:42:03 <jtimon> "adoption concord"?
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966 2016-02-02T19:47:30 <Luke-Jr> jtimon: also, "concord" is usually used with more concrete things, and consensus usually for less concrete agreement
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968 2016-02-02T19:48:26 <jtimon> s/libbitcoinconsensus/libbitcoinconcord ?
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970 2016-02-02T19:48:34 <Luke-Jr> jtimon: sure
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972 2016-02-02T19:49:07 <Luke-Jr> if we actually had users of the lib, we could even leave a .pc for the old name so it just works (but I don't think we have users yet)
973 2016-02-02T19:49:19 <jtimon> sure, waste all the promotion of the idea
974 2016-02-02T19:49:32 <jtimon> we have users of the lib
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979 2016-02-02T19:51:33 <jtimon> tamas told me they call it from one of their java libs, and libbitcoin uses it in its own way: https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-consensus
980 2016-02-02T19:54:25 <jtimon> seriously, definitely not for the code, but I'm liking concord more
981 2016-02-02T19:55:22 <Luke-Jr> oh well, then we just need to maintain the .pc file for the old name
982 2016-02-02T19:55:23 <Luke-Jr> no big deal
983 2016-02-02T19:55:57 <Luke-Jr> of course, segwit is breaking ABI anyway, so might as well drop the old name too maybe
984 2016-02-02T19:56:15 <jtimon> all the existing technical documentation (papers, posts, mailing list) would be deprecated for such a change
985 2016-02-02T19:57:13 <jtimon> most of what I've said in the past 2 years would suddenly don't make any sense, for example
986 2016-02-02T19:58:34 <jtimon> apart from the "only 249 lines" in core, other projects, wip branches like bip68, segwit, libconsensus-p3...
987 2016-02-02T19:59:06 <jtimon> btw, are you counting renaming all the files in consensus/* to concord/* ?
988 2016-02-02T19:59:58 <jtimon> no way, I would prefer that you just use a single term in your bip, thanks, I'll keep using consensus/uncontroversial
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1024 2016-02-02T20:48:27 <Luke-Jr> jtimon: as if 'consensus' is a new term in my BOPâ¦
1025 2016-02-02T20:48:34 <Luke-Jr> BIP*
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1035 2016-02-02T21:07:55 <jtimon> Luke-Jr: you would still need to use 'consensus' in your BIP I think
1036 2016-02-02T21:09:42 <Luke-Jr> just pointing out it wasn't me who proposed changing terminology :pp
1037 2016-02-02T21:10:36 <jtimon> BIPs that propose changes to the consensus rule, must get adoption concord before they can get to the final state
1038 2016-02-02T21:11:40 <jtimon> I'm not sure I was the first one either, I've been trying to do it for a while but I have heard other people try to separate the two concepts
1039 2016-02-02T21:11:47 <Luke-Jr> establed termminology is 'consensus'
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1041 2016-02-02T21:12:25 <jtimon> I agree, established terminology for "consensus rules" is "consensus", it seems we concord there :p
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1044 2016-02-02T21:13:54 <jtimon> do you want to violate established terminology to talk about "concord rules" in your BIP?
1045 2016-02-02T21:14:16 <jtimon> as said I would prefer that you leave it as it is
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1047 2016-02-02T21:16:17 <jtimon> can we at least talk about "consensus rules" and "adoption consensus" ?
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1072 2016-02-02T21:37:33 <instagibbs> so did everyone turn off their testnet miners at once
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1082 2016-02-02T21:44:34 <shorena> did the hashrate reset or why?
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1084 2016-02-02T21:44:47 <shorena> hashrate = difficulty*
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1109 2016-02-02T22:07:40 <instagibbs> shorena, well either way we're back
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1115 2016-02-02T22:15:33 <kfdsfe43> the best crane in the world after registration gives you Satoshi 10,000 thousand http://bit.ly/FreeBitcoin_key
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1170 2016-02-02T23:14:17 <Luke-Jr> jtimon: established terminology for /both/ is "consensus". And "concord" is never a verb
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1173 2016-02-02T23:17:15 <jtimon> Luke-Jr: ok, that's exactly what I meant by not being a native speaker, I believe "concord" has a close meaning in latin languages, which means I will feel more confident to missuse it
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1175 2016-02-02T23:17:48 <Luke-Jr> jtimon: "concord" is a much better fit for the protocol/rules; it doesn't really make sense for decision-making
1176 2016-02-02T23:18:52 <jtimon> so take my nit as a wild proposal to change the established "consensus" terminoligy only for the social part of it: feel free to ignore, but don't take it as an invitation to change the code's established terminology
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1178 2016-02-02T23:21:20 <Luke-Jr> jtimon: changing the code's terminology makes much more sense
1179 2016-02-02T23:21:59 <jtimon> from a totally selfish perspective, I'd rather not bikeshed s/"consensus"/X in the jtimon/libconsensus-p3 branch I just pushed
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1184 2016-02-02T23:24:03 <jtimon> s/i'd rather not/I don't think I could maintain my sanity while/
1185 2016-02-02T23:24:55 <jtimon> I really don't think you realize how stupidly disruptive this would be
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1187 2016-02-02T23:26:57 <Luke-Jr> it has nothing to do with any branch
1188 2016-02-02T23:27:05 <jtimon> changing it in the "non-code world" is kind of a softfork: nobody is forced to upgrade but anybody can do it at any point after "active"
1189 2016-02-02T23:27:27 <Luke-Jr> vice-versa
1190 2016-02-02T23:27:33 <Luke-Jr> changing code is easy. changing habits much less so
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1192 2016-02-02T23:27:57 <midnightmagic> concord, v. Etymology: Middle English, < French concorde-r < Latin concordÄre to be of one mind, < concors , concord- : see concord n.1, obsolete except sense 5: "To rearrange the words of a text in the form of a concordance."
1193 2016-02-02T23:28:06 <Luke-Jr> and there are multiple reasons to change the code one; not really for the agreement-style one
1194 2016-02-02T23:28:09 <jtimon> yes, it has to do, you're porposing to change my branch and many others, I'm not proposing to change text already published
1195 2016-02-02T23:28:23 <Luke-Jr> uh, yes you are
1196 2016-02-02T23:28:37 <Luke-Jr> you're proposing we change every single thing that discusses consensus
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1199 2016-02-02T23:31:18 <jtimon> no, that can't be done, neither for "consensus rules" nor for "acceptance consensus" (or whatever you want to call it)
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1202 2016-02-02T23:31:43 <Luke-Jr> well, then no reason to use a different term for the latter now either
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1205 2016-02-02T23:32:16 <jtimon> I offer my help if you want to change the latter, but I don't plan on changing the former in my terminology, I'm afraid is too late for that
1206 2016-02-02T23:34:12 <jtimon> that's another possibility for your bip, as said i believe that if I s/uncontroversial/consensus it wouldn't make any sense, because I'm precisely focusing between the two concepts in the infromational part
1207 2016-02-02T23:34:39 <jtimon> (in bip99)
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1209 2016-02-02T23:35:05 <jtimon> it's fine if you don't do anything about my nit
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1214 2016-02-02T23:38:38 <jtimon> I just wish more people used two separated terms, or at least that some of the people that do tried to unify their terminology
1215 2016-02-02T23:40:13 <jtimon> I believe you're the first one I talk with that is open to having two terms but suggests changing "consensus rules" rather "adoption consensus"
1216 2016-02-02T23:41:11 <jtimon> but I think I will s/uncontroversial/adoption consensus/ in bip99 for more compatibility with your bip
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1219 2016-02-02T23:42:08 <jtimon> you never answered that question so I will repeat it: can we at least talk about "consensus rules" and "adoption consensus" ?
1220 2016-02-02T23:42:52 <Luke-Jr> maybe. let me see if I can work that into this BIP
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1224 2016-02-02T23:43:30 <jtimon> Luke-Jr: great, no hurry, I'll gladly review the diff
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1233 2016-02-02T23:48:41 <Guest15842> fdf
1234 2016-02-02T23:49:25 *** likemob has joined #bitcoin-dev
1235 2016-02-02T23:49:28 <Guest15842> https://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=bitcoin-dev&uio=d4
1236 2016-02-02T23:49:37 <likemob> hi
1237 2016-02-02T23:49:39 <Guest15842> the best crane in the world after registration gives you Satoshi 10,000 thousand http://bit.ly/FreeBitcoin_key
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1239 2016-02-02T23:50:35 <Luke-Jr> !ops
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1245 2016-02-02T23:54:25 <Luke-Jr> jtimon: "adoption consensus" could work for the hard-fork case, but only in the context of this BIP since it is a post-hoc status update.. it doesn't seem to work in this BIP for the Process BIPs (consensus among devs) nor the soft-fork veto case (economic consensus to reject it)
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