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2 2016-02-03T00:00:25 <jtimon> Luke-Jr: how is the controversial softfork case different from the controversial hardfork one for any placeholder of <controversial> besides easier and faster deployment?
3 2016-02-03T00:01:18 <jtimon> and that's a question that should be answered if bip99 is ever going to get to final state
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5 2016-02-03T00:04:04 <Luke-Jr> jtimon: the "default" state
6 2016-02-03T00:04:16 <Luke-Jr> jtimon: softforks require consensus to veto; hardforks require consensus to pass
7 2016-02-03T00:04:26 <Luke-Jr> jtimon: emailed the list re "consensus" terminology
8 2016-02-03T00:05:27 <jtimon> and the same applies to <uncontroversial> in bip99, the two concepts are complementery in that sense, orthogonally to soft/hard fork terminology, and that's on purpose, and the proposed code is "whatever is in the uncontroversial/only-hardfork quarter on time and it's trivial to backport to 0.2 and forward-port to 0.14"
9 2016-02-03T00:06:30 <jtimon> re the "default" state; no idea what you maymean by this
10 2016-02-03T00:07:41 <jtimon> re: "softforks require consensus to veto; hardforks require consensus to pass" I assume you mean adiption consensus here, how is nearly-100% different from nearly-100%?
11 2016-02-03T00:08:19 <jtimon> sorry, I guess I should check the mailing list
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15 2016-02-03T00:19:55 <Chris_Stewart_5> Luke-Jr: don't softforks require consensus to enforce? I.e. super majority of the hash rate?
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39 2016-02-03T00:42:37 <Luke-Jr> Chris_Stewart_5: supermajority is not consensus ;)
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113 2016-02-03T03:40:30 <rusty> kanzure, btcdrak: I don't understand Dave Scotese's latest bitcoin-dev mail. Did someone moderate him and he's replying to the reject message?
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117 2016-02-03T03:41:37 <phantomcircuit> rusty, he seems to have hit the automated grey listing
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120 2016-02-03T03:42:40 <btcdrak> rusty: I was just finding the uptodate message regarding policy http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2016-January/012258.html
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122 2016-02-03T03:44:10 <kanzure> rusty: no idea
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124 2016-02-03T03:44:26 <rusty> btcdrak: yes, given how much that thread fizzled, I guess we continue moderation as before.
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127 2016-02-03T03:44:32 <kanzure> rusty: his emails seem sort of off-topic
128 2016-02-03T03:44:39 <kanzure> "please include the name of the moderator that approves the email" lol no
129 2016-02-03T03:44:56 <rusty> kanzure: I'm rejecting that first one now.
130 2016-02-03T03:45:03 <rusty> kanzure: yeah, the second one is just chat for the sake of chat AFAICT.
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132 2016-02-03T03:45:06 <btcdrak> oh absolutely, the moderation policy is absolutely fine as it. Clearly it's working.
133 2016-02-03T03:45:09 <kanzure> yeah so reject both
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140 2016-02-03T03:50:07 <rusty> kanzure: hmm, his second is actually on-topic, replying to the question LukeJr raised. It's a hairball question, though, and I think using "defining" instead of "consensus" is not going to work, but it's a direct reply.
141 2016-02-03T03:50:45 <kanzure> this is dumb.
142 2016-02-03T03:52:10 <rusty> kanzure: Luke-Jr opened a classic bikeshed opportunity, we should simply blame him :)
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144 2016-02-03T03:53:05 <Luke-Jr> rusty: â
145 2016-02-03T03:53:27 <rusty> Luke-Jr: you asked for people's opinion on terminology...
146 2016-02-03T03:53:44 <Luke-Jr> rusty: that was someone else who broached that subject..
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149 2016-02-03T03:57:49 <kanzure> yeah i'm in favor of blaming luke-jr
150 2016-02-03T03:57:51 <kanzure> works for me
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155 2016-02-03T03:59:33 <rusty> Luke-Jr: hmm, I'm just reading a quote, don't have context. You might be right.
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447 2016-02-03T12:01:06 <jtimon> Luke-Jr: re: "softforks require consensus to veto; hardforks require consensus to pass" I don't undesrtand, don't just both of adoption consensus in the same way ("everybody" must agree that they will adopt it)? what do you mean "consensus to veto"? you mean everyone must agree to veto them or they should be adopted?
448 2016-02-03T12:04:40 <phantomcircuit> jtimon, a soft fork can be enforced by nothing more than a majority of hashing power
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450 2016-02-03T12:06:05 <jtimon> phantomcircuit: I know, but we're talking about Luke-Jr's BIP, which explicitly say miners should have no power over the consensus rules (as in, if they deploy a controversial softfork, we should ASIC-reset hardfork them out)
451 2016-02-03T12:07:11 <phantomcircuit> jtimon, im not sure that would actually be necessary, a soft fork by design is essentially censorship of transactions which violate a specific rule
452 2016-02-03T12:07:24 <phantomcircuit> all we need to prevent that is fees to exceed subsidy
453 2016-02-03T12:09:13 <jtimon> mhmm, say an evil miner cabal softforks to only allow...I don't know, p2pk, or only transfers from addresses that contain a "22" in them...I know these 2 examples are stupid, but still...
454 2016-02-03T12:10:21 <jtimon> in those (unlikely) cases we could ASIC-reset miners
455 2016-02-03T12:11:37 <jtimon> in any case, luke's BIP very clearly says that adoption consensus != miners, so when he said here that " softforks require consensus to veto" he cannot possibly mean "miners" by "consensus" there
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462 2016-02-03T12:19:23 <phantomcircuit> jtimon, i think it's a better long term bet that fees provide an incentive not to censor transactions based on things which are not widely accepted
463 2016-02-03T12:21:12 <jtimon> phantomcircuit: I just want to undesrtand what Luke-Jr means, I'm not talking about bets
464 2016-02-03T12:21:59 <phantomcircuit> jtimon, yes if a mining cabal began censoring transactions for reasons users disagreed with the pow could be changed (although probably with a massive amount of effort and nuisance...)
465 2016-02-03T12:23:36 <jtimon> phantomcircuit: of course it would be painful, but philosophycally, it helps explain why miners are NOT in control of the consensus rules
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467 2016-02-03T12:24:12 <phantomcircuit> jtimon, yes, miners provide ordering and nothing more
468 2016-02-03T12:25:02 <jtimon> phantomcircuit: agreed, that's why "a soft fork can be enforced by nothing more than a majority of hashing power" can be confusing to many people
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470 2016-02-03T12:27:57 <phantomcircuit> jtimon, a soft fork enforced by a majority of hashing power is only temporary without the client side lock in
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493 2016-02-03T12:42:25 <jtimon> yep
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574 2016-02-03T14:51:04 <Chris_Stewart_5> what does this comment mean wrt to this scriptsig and scriptPubKey
575 2016-02-03T14:51:07 <Chris_Stewart_5> ["1 0x05 0x01 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00", "VERIFY", "P2SH,STRICTENC", "values >4 bytes can be cast to boolean"]
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580 2016-02-03T15:04:53 <gavinandresen> Chris_Stewart_5: if I recall Script details correctly, that scriptPubKey pushes 1 (0x1) onto the stack and then pushes the 5-byte version of 1 (0x00000001) onto the stack. The VERIFY pops the 5-byte version and casts it to a boolean TRUE and succeeds. Then the other 1 is left on the stack and the script succeeds.
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582 2016-02-03T15:05:37 <gavinandresen> Chris_Stewart_5: it is a good test because Script has wacky rules about booleans and numbers....
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584 2016-02-03T15:05:58 <Chris_Stewart_5> Ok that makes sense with the 0x05 push op. Thanks for the clarification gavinandresen
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586 2016-02-03T15:09:32 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr : RE: defining consensus: can we just steal from the IETF process or some other standardization process people seem to be mostly happy with? I'm sorry not to give you more specific feedback, but I don't consider myself an expert at governance/standardization processes.
587 2016-02-03T15:09:52 <gavinandresen> (and I don't really want to become an expert on that)
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596 2016-02-03T15:18:45 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, you want to steal the governance process from organizations which standardized the likes of tls? no thanks
597 2016-02-03T15:19:48 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: this famous quote by Winston Churchill comes to mind: âDemocracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.â
598 2016-02-03T15:20:31 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: ... happy to steal a better process if you know of something that works better.
599 2016-02-03T15:21:12 <phantomcircuit> bitcoin isn't a democracy, if it was we'd all be wasting our time
600 2016-02-03T15:21:43 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: you're too literal. Re-cast the quote as "The IETF process is the worst form of standardization, except for all the others"
601 2016-02-03T15:21:46 <phantomcircuit> the rules were laid bare and clear for all to see before deciding to participate in the system
602 2016-02-03T15:22:02 <phantomcircuit> to try and change those rules after the fact cannot be done by a simple majority
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604 2016-02-03T15:22:13 <phantomcircuit> if it can then the system is a failure and mike was right
605 2016-02-03T15:23:00 <gavinandresen> (I'm going to be quiet about philosophizing about governance processes, as I said I don't want to become an expert but I think we should listen to experts....)
606 2016-02-03T15:23:01 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, im thinking you're not entirely aware of the ietf process
607 2016-02-03T15:23:16 <gavinandresen> I'm not entirely aware of the IETF process, that's true.
608 2016-02-03T15:23:16 * phantomcircuit walks away humming
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635 2016-02-03T16:10:04 <kaalia> How can i query blockchain to find transaction fee per block?
636 2016-02-03T16:10:23 <kaalia> using json rpc or similar?
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639 2016-02-03T16:10:46 <Spartn> Hi
640 2016-02-03T16:10:52 <Spartn> Someone?
641 2016-02-03T16:11:24 <Spartn> Français?
642 2016-02-03T16:11:35 *** p15 has quit IRC
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644 2016-02-03T16:13:08 <Spartn> Pls?
645 2016-02-03T16:14:37 <Spartn> Allo
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648 2016-02-03T16:15:20 <gijensen> Spartn, try #bitcoin its more general
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650 2016-02-03T16:16:54 <kaalia> How can i query blockchain to find transaction fee per block?
651 2016-02-03T16:17:01 <gevs> Spartn come in private
652 2016-02-03T16:17:14 <kaalia> Anyone?
653 2016-02-03T16:17:22 <gijensen> kaalia, I'm not sure if you can. You can get all the transactions in a block with "getblock" then if you have txindex=1, you can use getrawtransaction on each transaction and add the fees together. If you set verbose on "getblock" to "False" you can get the raw block and parse it yourself.
654 2016-02-03T16:18:46 <Spartn> thanks gijensen
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658 2016-02-03T16:27:15 <cluelessperson> hm
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664 2016-02-03T16:40:35 <Chris_Stewart_5> What exactly is the use case for having an alternative stack?
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723 2016-02-03T17:37:13 <gijensen> kaalia, I'm almost ready to release a tool that'll make scripting RPC commands really easy. I'll add a function to get fee by txid (provided you have txindex=1)
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742 2016-02-03T18:05:56 <Luke-Jr> jtimon: economic consensus *can* veto a soft-fork, is the point
743 2016-02-03T18:07:01 <Tasoshi> how?
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745 2016-02-03T18:07:46 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: Unlike the IETF, Bitcoin has no governance; BIPs can only hope to accurately model what the reality is. I'll look into if the IETF's governance might be close enough match for this though
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748 2016-02-03T18:08:01 <Tasoshi> Luke-Jr, how does the economic majority veto a soft fork?
749 2016-02-03T18:08:12 *** jaclupi has joined #bitcoin-dev
750 2016-02-03T18:08:20 <Luke-Jr> Tasoshi: hardforking away from the group of miners enforcing the softfork
751 2016-02-03T18:08:40 <Tasoshi> how is that a veto? that's suicide, not veto
752 2016-02-03T18:08:49 <Luke-Jr> no, it isn't suicide.
753 2016-02-03T18:08:50 <jtimon> Luke-Jr: just like it can veto hardforks, no? what is the difference? I still don't undesrtand your "softforks require consensus to veto; hardforks require consensus to pass"
754 2016-02-03T18:09:07 <Luke-Jr> jtimon: the economic consensus is requires for a hardfork in the first place
755 2016-02-03T18:09:10 <Luke-Jr> required*
756 2016-02-03T18:09:24 <Tasoshi> of course it is suicide, hardforking away from the miners brings security down to 0
757 2016-02-03T18:09:35 <Tasoshi> last time we had 0 security price was pretty close to 0 too
758 2016-02-03T18:09:35 <Luke-Jr> Tasoshi: nonsense
759 2016-02-03T18:09:52 <Luke-Jr> price was highest in 2012 when GPU mining flourished
760 2016-02-03T18:10:03 <jtimon> oh, I think I get it, you require economic consensus to deploy the hardfork that would invalidate (veto) the unwanted softfork, is that what you mean?
761 2016-02-03T18:10:06 <Tasoshi> in 2012 price was 2 dollars
762 2016-02-03T18:10:28 <Luke-Jr> jtimon: yes
763 2016-02-03T18:11:52 <Luke-Jr> Tasoshi: more like $6, but I guess you're right, it was 2013-2014 the price went to $1k
764 2016-02-03T18:12:01 <Luke-Jr> Tasoshi: in any case, price doesn't follow security
765 2016-02-03T18:12:08 <Tasoshi> and that is when asics came on too
766 2016-02-03T18:12:17 <Tasoshi> higher security = higher price...
767 2016-02-03T18:12:27 <Luke-Jr> evil miners would be the least secure possibility anyway
768 2016-02-03T18:12:34 <Luke-Jr> Tasoshi: no, that isn't true
769 2016-02-03T18:12:40 <Luke-Jr> higher price = higher security
770 2016-02-03T18:12:46 <jtimon> Tasoshi: that's because the security is paid with the subsidy (which varies in price) not because the price depends on the security (although it may actually happen if many investors/speculators are using the labor theory of value in their predictions, just like bitcoin could rise on rainy days if enough people believe rainy days cause bitcoin to rise in price)
771 2016-02-03T18:12:49 *** sipi has joined #bitcoin-dev
772 2016-02-03T18:12:52 <Tasoshi> 51% of miners can't be evil, that is the assumption and the whole point of bitcoin
773 2016-02-03T18:12:55 <Luke-Jr> higher price provides more funding for mining development
774 2016-02-03T18:13:07 <Luke-Jr> Tasoshi: we're talking about a situation where >51% are evil
775 2016-02-03T18:13:28 *** sipi_ has quit IRC
776 2016-02-03T18:13:35 <Tasoshi> the only way that situation can apply is if a world government corrupted all the miners...
777 2016-02-03T18:14:01 <Tasoshi> and in that case, if it is at all possible for such congregation, our problems would be far greater
778 2016-02-03T18:14:13 <jtimon> I'm confused, what situation are we talking about?
779 2016-02-03T18:14:25 <Luke-Jr> Tasoshi: no, that isn't.
780 2016-02-03T18:14:47 <Luke-Jr> jtimon: miners decide to softfork in something the economic consensus decides is evil
781 2016-02-03T18:15:11 <Luke-Jr> for example, voiding bitcoins mined before 2014
782 2016-02-03T18:15:14 <Tasoshi> miners can soft fork an increase of the 21m limit...
783 2016-02-03T18:15:41 <Tasoshi> everything can be soft forked - I think that is a direct quote from gmaxwell
784 2016-02-03T18:16:18 <Tasoshi> but of course no one would have a say in the case of a hard fork, because all the old nodes would be tricked to serve the "evil miners"
785 2016-02-03T18:16:19 <jtimon> oh, I see, Tasoshi thinks an ASIC-reset hardfork would be suicidal and it would be better to swallow whetever softfork they want to enforce no matter how evil/absurd it is, like, say, 1% minimum fees
786 2016-02-03T18:16:39 <Luke-Jr> "Miners before 2014 had a much lower difficulty. Therefore, the value of any such unspent bitcoins will be reduced to merely 5 BTC instead of 50/25."
787 2016-02-03T18:16:56 <Tasoshi> sorry, no one would have a say in the case of that sort of soft fork* because everyone would be tricked to serve the "evil miners"
788 2016-02-03T18:17:32 *** janko33 has joined #bitcoin-dev
789 2016-02-03T18:17:36 <Luke-Jr> Tasoshi: a hardfork can block it by firing that set of miners
790 2016-02-03T18:17:52 *** atgreen has joined #bitcoin-dev
791 2016-02-03T18:17:56 <Tasoshi> jtimon, let us assume everyone cpu or gpu mines, what stops me from creating a cpu or gpu mining farm? Well nothing of course
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793 2016-02-03T18:19:00 <Tasoshi> It is speculated satoshi had one... it is not a high logical jump from more cpu to get more cpu...
794 2016-02-03T18:19:02 <jtimon> I'm not sure how you can softfork an increase in inflation, but let's say it's possible and use that as our example. In that case would not be better to hardfork than continue depending on those evil miners?
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796 2016-02-03T18:19:43 <jtimon> I don't see the problem with you creating a GPGPU farm or even a new ASIC for the new hashing algorithm
797 2016-02-03T18:20:19 <Tasoshi> well, if you have to hardfork the miners, except for in super extreme situations, you are simply declaring and admitting that the whole thing does not work
798 2016-02-03T18:20:47 <Tasoshi> for what makes you think the next miners would behave, etc.
799 2016-02-03T18:20:54 <jtimon> in fact, it would probably be nice to have GPGPU mining free software for the new algorithm ready before doing such a hardfork
800 2016-02-03T18:21:47 <Tasoshi> jtimon, as I mentioned earlier, I think there is no difference whatever between cpu and asics mining. In the former, you can just buy tons of laptops...
801 2016-02-03T18:22:09 <jtimon> no, I'm just declaring the evil miner's hardware obsolete, hopefully the new miners won't be stupid enough to do an evil softfork again to lost a lot of invested money like their predecessors
802 2016-02-03T18:22:13 <Tasoshi> except of course that asics provide far higher security and thus higher value
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805 2016-02-03T18:23:13 <Tasoshi> but it isn't the miners who did the evil soft fork to begin with, presumably it was the developers...
806 2016-02-03T18:23:29 <jtimon> I really don't get your point aboug cpu vs GPU vs ASIC mining, I'm not saying ASIC are bad, but if the owners of those ASICs are stupid and evil we can just deprecate their hardware and wait for new ASICs to appear
807 2016-02-03T18:23:59 <Tasoshi> only if you wish to admit the concept does not work
808 2016-02-03T18:24:55 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: is it intentional that you are using two different emails in various BIPs?
809 2016-02-03T18:24:56 <jtimon> I believe the concepts works and is very simple: miners don't decide the rules, if they attempt to control the rules in evil ways, users can get together and "fire them"
810 2016-02-03T18:25:39 <Tasoshi> that applies only in super extreme circumstances which really should not be possible
811 2016-02-03T18:26:45 <Tasoshi> if it is possible then what you ought to learn is that the thing does not work, in my view
812 2016-02-03T18:27:49 <Luke-Jr> Tasoshi: miners were never intended to have any power over the rules
813 2016-02-03T18:27:59 <Tasoshi> a government can not coerce all the miners, and 51% of miners must behave honestly as far as any logics applies, if either fails then the whole thing has to go back to the blackboard
814 2016-02-03T18:28:40 <Tasoshi> the miners are the keepers of the rules, they protect from potentially evil developers
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816 2016-02-03T18:29:00 <Tasoshi> and ractify or otherwise what is proposed
817 2016-02-03T18:29:08 *** AtnevRed has joined #bitcoin-dev
818 2016-02-03T18:29:16 <Luke-Jr> Bitcoin is not government-resistent.
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820 2016-02-03T18:29:53 <Luke-Jr> miners have slightly more influence than developers over the rules, but neither group is intended to control them
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822 2016-02-03T18:30:22 <Tasoshi> miners have ultimate say over the rules with the developers having none
823 2016-02-03T18:30:24 <jtimon> Tasoshi: in my view, that case is possible, and it's users who need to protect themselves from evil developers or miners
824 2016-02-03T18:31:12 <Tasoshi> all the developers can do is propose and everyone is freely and fully entitle to ignore them completely
825 2016-02-03T18:31:17 <Tasoshi> especially the miners
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827 2016-02-03T18:31:41 <jtimon> Tasoshi: I disagree, users have to accept the rules, neither miners nor developers have any "governance power" over the consensus rules
828 2016-02-03T18:31:41 <Tasoshi> but you can not easily ignore what 51% of the miners do or do not decide
829 2016-02-03T18:31:57 <Luke-Jr> Tasoshi: you are wrong
830 2016-02-03T18:31:59 <Luke-Jr> well
831 2016-02-03T18:32:01 <Tasoshi> they hold the keys, giving you the only option of joining or leaving
832 2016-02-03T18:32:09 <Luke-Jr> not easily, in the case of softforks
833 2016-02-03T18:32:15 <Luke-Jr> but for hardforks, miners have zero say
834 2016-02-03T18:32:27 <jtimon> as explained, "the keys" can be taken away from them with a hardfork
835 2016-02-03T18:32:37 <Tasoshi> jtimon the users have the suicide say - again they can choose to leave or join
836 2016-02-03T18:33:18 <Luke-Jr> it's not suicide.
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838 2016-02-03T18:33:26 <Luke-Jr> it's just a replacing of miners.
839 2016-02-03T18:33:46 <Tasoshi> no, it is a degrading of security to 0
840 2016-02-03T18:33:54 <Luke-Jr> no, it isn't.
841 2016-02-03T18:33:57 <Luke-Jr> there are lots of GPU miners
842 2016-02-03T18:33:59 <Tasoshi> bitcoin retains no value at 0 security
843 2016-02-03T18:34:04 <jtimon> I'm sure many GPUs would be ready to mine from day 1
844 2016-02-03T18:34:07 <Tasoshi> when 1 guy can attack it in his own basement
845 2016-02-03T18:34:16 <Luke-Jr> bitcoin retains more value at GPU security, than at evil-ASIC-miner security
846 2016-02-03T18:34:35 <Tasoshi> currently it takes 2 billions to externally attack bitcoin - fire all the miners and prob just 10k or 100k is enough
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848 2016-02-03T18:35:07 <Tasoshi> asics are not evil, I went through this. Nothing stops you from creating a gpu mining farm
849 2016-02-03T18:35:21 <Luke-Jr> ASICs are not evil, but we're talking about a scenario where the ASIC miners have become evil
850 2016-02-03T18:35:28 <Tasoshi> then
851 2016-02-03T18:35:36 <Tasoshi> describe the scenario
852 2016-02-03T18:35:43 <jtimon> Tasoshi: people should probably start waiting more than 6 confirmation for some time as an additional safety meassure, as the bitcoin withepaper explains, more confirmations means more security, not only more hashrate
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871 2016-02-03T18:51:49 <Tasoshi> jtimon the ideal scenario is where we don't have to wait for even one confirmation. Remember there is a person on the other side of the screen waiting... and I am sure they would much rather not
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875 2016-02-03T18:58:15 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: reading RFC 7282, so far I get the impression that "obstructive" should be changed to "addressed or obstructive" - does that improve it in your view?
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885 2016-02-03T19:18:49 <jtimon> Tasoshi: I never read anything about that "don't wait for any confirmation" in the withepaper, but payment channels ala lightning could deliver that
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954 2016-02-03T21:09:53 * Luke-Jr ponders if he should add his BIP format syntax checker to the bips repo or not.
955 2016-02-03T21:10:57 <Luke-Jr> or maybe I should make a separate repo for it and just add a link..
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967 2016-02-03T21:28:04 <Lightsword> hmm, looks like armory is being shut down https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1351792.0
968 2016-02-03T21:30:05 <zooko> Hm.
969 2016-02-03T21:30:57 <kefkius> That'd be a cool thing to have Travis CI run on PRs Luke-Jr
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971 2016-02-03T21:31:48 <zooko> kefkius, Luke-Jr: we're working on a similar thing in the Zcash project, here's the first test of it: https://github.com/zcash/notzcash/pull/7
972 2016-02-03T21:32:06 <zooko> We'd be willing to give bitcoin devs access or configure it as they need to let it serve bitcoin core dev as well.
973 2016-02-03T21:32:22 <zooko> Since the Zcash project is based on bitcoin core and we need to do lots of tests and CI and stuff on Bitcoin core anyway.
974 2016-02-03T21:32:30 <zooko> Plus which we'd like to contribute, if useful.
975 2016-02-03T21:33:13 <Luke-Jr> kefkius: oh, good point
976 2016-02-03T21:33:27 <Luke-Jr> zooko: topic is bips, not Core :p
977 2016-02-03T21:33:31 <Lightsword> looks like thereâs at least someone interested in maintaining it going forward https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1351924.0
978 2016-02-03T21:33:56 <zooko> Luke-Jr: oh, I'm confused what kefkius was suggesting then
979 2016-02-03T21:34:37 <Luke-Jr> kefkius: running the BIP sanity checker on the bips repo in Traivs
980 2016-02-03T21:34:50 <kefkius> ^
981 2016-02-03T21:35:26 <zooko> Ooh, I see.
982 2016-02-03T21:35:36 * zooko takes it to #bitcoin-core-dev
983 2016-02-03T21:36:04 <Lightsword> curious if it would be remotely feasible to support armoryâs HD wallet format within core https://bitcoinarmory.com/wallet-format/
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995 2016-02-03T21:49:24 <instagibbs> kanzure, waxwing, where was that waxwing CT breakdown? Can't find it via google
996 2016-02-03T21:49:36 <Luke-Jr> Lightsword: not a goal IMO
997 2016-02-03T21:49:47 <waxwing> instagibbs: github.com/AdamISZ/ConfidentialTransactions (or similar)
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999 2016-02-03T21:49:57 <Luke-Jr> Lightsword: note the HD wallet algorithm is non-standard
1000 2016-02-03T21:50:06 <instagibbs> grazie ill try to figure it out
1001 2016-02-03T21:50:14 <waxwing> https://github.com/AdamISZ/ConfidentialTransactionsDoc
1002 2016-02-03T21:50:18 <instagibbs> https://github.com/AdamISZ/ConfidentialTransactionsDoc
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1004 2016-02-03T21:50:23 <instagibbs> thx
1005 2016-02-03T21:50:44 <Lightsword> Luke-Jr, is the HD wallet algorithm appear to be secure?
1006 2016-02-03T21:51:34 <Luke-Jr> Lightsword: I am not aware of any public audits.
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1008 2016-02-03T21:52:47 <Lightsword> Luke-Jr, hmm, core is planning HD wallet support at some point right?
1009 2016-02-03T21:53:06 <Luke-Jr> Lightsword: based on the BIPs, yes
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1011 2016-02-03T21:54:12 <Lightsword> Luke-Jr, is core planning to leave the wallet database format as is(bdb seems like a weird choice) or redo it with a conversion utility?
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1028 2016-02-03T22:09:27 <helo> Lightsword: i think it's a goal, but not yet planned
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1030 2016-02-03T22:10:42 <Lightsword> helo, any idea why the wallet didnât just use something like sqlite? sqlite is extremely well tested and has a stable file format unlike bdb
1031 2016-02-03T22:11:08 <helo> bdb was chosen by satoshi afaik. it was used for the block index as well as the wallet.
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1038 2016-02-03T22:17:40 <Luke-Jr> Lightsword: SQL is overkill, and doesn't actually improve anything
1039 2016-02-03T22:17:55 <Luke-Jr> Lightsword: the idea is an append-only format
1040 2016-02-03T22:19:06 <Luke-Jr> but really, the whole thing needs a rewrite
1041 2016-02-03T22:19:11 <Luke-Jr> it's too malleable-vulnerable now
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1044 2016-02-03T22:22:13 <Lightsword> Luke-Jr, sqlite isnât that heavy though and natively handles other issues such as shutdowns mid write etc, itâs also has aviation level certifications with full branch test coverage, I realize SQL isnât really neccesary but it could still come in useful in theory, IMO itâs probably better than trying to make our own custom format
1045 2016-02-03T22:22:50 <Lightsword> https://www.sqlite.org/testing.html
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1050 2016-02-03T22:28:45 <helo> append only is highly desired
1051 2016-02-03T22:29:07 <kanzure> i have been missing sqlite://:memory: lately....
1052 2016-02-03T22:29:30 <kanzure> so as an alternative i have been thinking about wrapping postgresql in a docker container and making a c library that speaks to dockerland
1053 2016-02-03T22:29:48 <kanzure> and then destroy the container at the end, rather than maintaining a local postgresql on /dev/shm or something
1054 2016-02-03T22:32:46 <Lightsword> helo, is there any reason we canât get the same result by just restricting the allowed sqlite queries to write only operations?
1055 2016-02-03T22:33:11 <Luke-Jr> Lightsword: sqlite never does append-only, even if you only write
1056 2016-02-03T22:33:49 <Lightsword> Luke-Jr, whatâs the reason for append only? to guard against corruption?
1057 2016-02-03T22:33:52 <helo> i think part of the goal is to not re-write data that is already recorded
1058 2016-02-03T22:33:55 <Luke-Jr> yes
1059 2016-02-03T22:34:20 <Luke-Jr> also allows incremental backups
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1062 2016-02-03T22:34:54 <Lightsword> Luke-Jr, corruption should not be an issue with sqlite, it can handle poweroff mid write without issues
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1064 2016-02-03T22:36:02 <Luke-Jr> Lightsword: â¦
1065 2016-02-03T22:36:10 <Luke-Jr> you underestimate bad hardware
1066 2016-02-03T22:36:28 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: I apparently don't have admin to bitcoin/bips necessary for enabling Travis. Could you fix that?
1067 2016-02-03T22:36:58 <Lightsword> Luke-Jr, maybeâ¦but even in append only we would have to handle corruption to some degree if itâs that bad
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1069 2016-02-03T22:37:32 <Luke-Jr> Lightsword: it would be immediately noticed updating the incremental backup, which would itself be unaffected
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1072 2016-02-03T22:47:00 <Lightsword> Luke-Jr, the main issue I think is that a custom append only format is just going to be extra maintainence overhead that could be easially avoided
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1075 2016-02-03T22:49:52 <Lightsword> and might present portability issues while sqlite is widely tested across many platforms
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1077 2016-02-03T22:51:28 <helo> i think just switching to "some other light db" has been deemed not worth it
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1079 2016-02-03T22:58:20 <Luke-Jr> in theory, I suppose a simple append-only format would be a SQL log :P
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