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   5 2016-02-04T00:13:13  <jtimon> Luke-Jr: I still kind of disagree that "miners aren't users" since they implicitly need to sell their collected btc or sit on their btc and become holders/potential-spenders/speculators, I guess it is related to the fact that iirc you said buying or selling btc for other currencies somehow "doesn't count", having heard very inclusive definitions of "currency" and "service", some red lights were turned on in my brain when reading some
   6 2016-02-04T00:13:13  <jtimon>  parts of your bips related to this as well, btw, where is https://github.com/luke-jr/bips/blob/bip-biprevised/bip-biprevised.mediawi ?
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  11 2016-02-04T00:19:36  <jtimon> but in any case the overall concept of the bip, and specially the attempt on making how consensus-changing-BIP's states be determined in an objective way is a very good goal, it's much easier to objectively define with softforks than with hardforks, but should be also possible with hardforks, or at least for a reduced definition of uncontroversial/economic-majority/user-consensus/whatever hardforks. I think some of the clarifying
  12 2016-02-04T00:19:36  <jtimon> parts of this
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  18 2016-02-04T00:25:54  <jtimon> BIP are many things (at least in intend) with the informational part of BIP99 [I keep wondering if I should have separated the informational from the code/hardfork-wish-list part], so I'll wait for your "economic consensus" definition to be more stable to link it and at worse reuse to define a new term if I feel that "consensus rules/code" vs "economic/adoption consensus" is not expressive enough for BIP99 (because I think a document
  19 2016-02-04T00:25:54  <jtimon>  must clearly talk about the two concepts and some of their relantionships somewhere)
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  31 2016-02-04T00:57:58  <Luke-Jr> jtimon: iirc you said buying or selling btc for other currencies somehow "doesn't count" <-- you recall wrongly
  32 2016-02-04T00:58:43  <Luke-Jr> jtimon: miners only become sellers/holders if they're mining within the economy's set rules
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  37 2016-02-04T01:04:07  <jtimon> I may have said it doesn't count as "real economy", but I never claimed that thing I was talking about was objectively measurable, it seems that I may have conflated two different contexts when talking to you about "doesn't count"
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  39 2016-02-04T01:05:23  <jtimon> Luke-Jr: agreed on the second point. I may had expressed the same thing in my own terminology as "miners are only part of the economy if they're mining the same currency"
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  41 2016-02-04T01:05:56  <Luke-Jr> jtimon: this is why it isn't relevant for the case of hardforks
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  44 2016-02-04T01:07:00  <jtimon> in my terminology, an ASIC-reset hardfork is "controversial" by defintion, because miners are users too (BIP99 actually recommends controversial hardforks for some extreme cases)
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  48 2016-02-04T01:09:43  <Luke-Jr> jtimon: part of the Rationale does explicitly say miners may be relevant in their other capacities FWIW
  49 2016-02-04T01:11:09  <jtimon> of course, there's no way for the BIP process to objectively tell whether a given controversial hardfork proposal is "right", and bip99 should only talk about extreme cases where a controversial hardfork should be "obviously right" to anyone that wants to understand the examples
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  52 2016-02-04T01:13:39  <Luke-Jr> well, it *could* but you'd probably end up the new most-controversial Bitcoin figure :P
  53 2016-02-04T01:13:57  <jtimon> Luke-Jr: yeah, I noticed that "other capacities" point and I think is basically what I was a missing piece in previous discussions with you, I like that, and I just want to make sure that is explicit enough. anyway, http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/https://github.com/luke-jr/bips/blob/bip-biprevised/bip-biprevised.mediawi
  54 2016-02-04T01:14:19  <Luke-Jr> O.o?
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  57 2016-02-04T01:15:52  <jtimon> is that the correct link?
  58 2016-02-04T01:16:00  <Luke-Jr> no
  59 2016-02-04T01:16:09  <Luke-Jr> you're missing "ki" at the end
  60 2016-02-04T01:16:45  * jtimon facepalm
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  62 2016-02-04T01:19:37  <jtimon> would "de facto nearly-universal usage of the hard-fork in practice" be too strict?
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  66 2016-02-04T01:22:03  <jtimon> "A soft-fork BIP strictly requires a clear miner majority expressed by blockchain voting" that seems to imply that an economic majority is not needed for an softfork to be considered deployed + uncontroversial, and uncontroversial should be a requirement for softfork final status just like it is for hardforks
  67 2016-02-04T01:23:57  <Luke-Jr> why?
  68 2016-02-04T01:24:56  <jtimon> suggestion: rewrite the "Why aren't <x></x> included in the economy?" section from "X are not included in the economy..." to "X are included in the economy only to the extend that they..."
  69 2016-02-04T01:25:08  <Luke-Jr> that sounds like a "should be" requirement
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  72 2016-02-04T01:26:09  <Luke-Jr> jtimon: the first bullet point says that..
  73 2016-02-04T01:26:56  <jtimon> sure, it's just a suggestion for it to sound inclusive vs exclusive with the same objective meaning
  74 2016-02-04T01:27:58  <jtimon> to the should-be point: let's imagine that the "inflation softfork" (seriously, let anyone let me know how if it's technically possible) has been deployed by 96% of the hashing power but the "economic majority" (however we have defined it) disagrees with the change
  75 2016-02-04T01:28:17  <jtimon> should that BIP get to final after deployed?
  76 2016-02-04T01:28:27  <jtimon> I think we don't know yet
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  79 2016-02-04T01:32:18  <jtimon> if all users move to an asic-reset hardfork, for example, maybe that controversial softfork should never get to final, but the hardfork (let's not discuss more about whether an asic-reset is intrinsically controversial or not for now) that overwrittes the "evil" softfork can be objectively considered final later
  80 2016-02-04T01:33:03  <jtimon> of course we should have #bitcoin-philosophy or something
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  86 2016-02-04T01:38:49  <Luke-Jr> jtimon: unless the economic consensus has decided to hardfork out of it..
  87 2016-02-04T01:39:02  <jtimon> but seriously, one of the points of the characteristics and deployment recommendations where quite similar for "uncontroversial" changes regardless of them being softforks or hardforks, although a "minimum date before letting miners determine the exact date via bip9" was an additional requirement for uncontroversial hardforks (no miner coordination for controversial hardforks including asic-reset hardforks) and I still have to add
  88 2016-02-04T01:39:03  <jtimon> the "you should have the block after new hardfork activation have a negative block version for properly-implemented-hardfork-notification forward compatibility"
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  93 2016-02-04T01:40:55  <jtimon> Luke-Jr: ?? specially if the economic consensus forks out of the offending softfork, it should never get to final, even if it has been objectively deployed by the "A soft-fork BIP strictly requires a clear miner majority expressed by blockchain voting" criterion
  94 2016-02-04T01:41:21  <Luke-Jr> jtimon: that is not the only criterion
  95 2016-02-04T01:41:39  <Luke-Jr> ", as well as not meeting the inverse criteria for a hard-fork BIP (that is, economic agreement to block the soft-fork with a hard-fork, may be cause to reject that soft-fork BIP despite miner adoption)."
  96 2016-02-04T01:42:09  <jtimon> ok, economic consensus is also required for uncontroversial softforks to get to the final state, right?
  97 2016-02-04T01:42:57  <Luke-Jr> no
  98 2016-02-04T01:43:02  <Luke-Jr> lack of economic consensus contrary to it
  99 2016-02-04T01:43:10  <Luke-Jr> since economic consensus would be required to hard-fork away
 100 2016-02-04T01:43:16  <jtimon> mhmm, I finally get what you mean by "economic majority is required to veto softforks"
 101 2016-02-04T01:43:55  <jtimon> I thought I did that yesterday, but I didn't
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 103 2016-02-04T01:44:35  <gevs> and thanks for being so precise about it jtimon, helped me getting it, just now :)
 104 2016-02-04T01:45:41  <jtimon> mhmm, but assuming we can somehow objectively monitor that a softfork BIP didn't got economic consensus...
 105 2016-02-04T01:47:04  <jtimon> how long we should wait for it to be changed to final after deployment vs waiting for the dissenting hardfork to be deployed (perhaphs permantently in parallel)
 106 2016-02-04T01:47:55  <jtimon> gevs: thanks, but I think we're all still trying to get it :p
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 112 2016-02-04T01:49:38  <gevs> your questioning is full of sense though
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 115 2016-02-04T01:50:42  <gevs> im still lost in youtube videos of core devs and trying to get the most out of the 7 years that has passed on bitcoin dev :)
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 119 2016-02-04T01:52:39  * gevs moved youtube to the third screen now, better a background than music to hear the subtle jokes of devs in their talks xD
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 121 2016-02-04T01:54:20  <jtimon> Luke-Jr: in other words, if there's any way to objectively determine "economic consensus" for a given hardfork BIP, it should be reusable to filter out softfork BIPs that don't meet that criterion not to reach the final (aka uncontroversial final) state, regardless of them being deployed by " a clear miner majority expressed by blockchain voting"  (btw, did I say that I'm not alone in hating the term "miner/blockchain voting" and
 122 2016-02-04T01:54:20  <jtimon> preferring "miner sginaling/upgrade-confirmation" instead?)
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 129 2016-02-04T02:04:39  <jtimon> I suspect that all my concerns can be somehow solved just by being a little bit more explicit here and there, I'm excited about the clarity that can be added to the bip process with this bip, moving bip99 to replaced by yours for the informative part (plus a new bip for the simple-clearly-uncontroversial-hardfork-cleanup-implemented-reviewed-and-rebased-wishlist) it's still an open possibility, although maybe " 'rightful'
 130 2016-02-04T02:04:40  <jtimon> controversial hardforks" cannot be covered in your BIP besides ASIC-reset hardfork
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 136 2016-02-04T02:09:17  <Luke-Jr> jtimon: well, this BIP doesn't aim to describe *how* to accomplish the hard-fork, so BIP 99 may still need that
 137 2016-02-04T02:09:26  <Luke-Jr> just how to determine that it is Final
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 171 2016-02-04T02:54:53  <jtimon> yep, probably bip99 should not be deprecated, still, it would probably add clarity to "rebase" it on top of yours
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 577 2016-02-04T12:09:03  <wumpus> Luke-Jr: so to be clear, you want travis to be activated on the bips repository? what would this accomplish?
 578 2016-02-04T12:09:18  *** jaclupi has joined #bitcoin-dev
 579 2016-02-04T12:09:33  <wumpus> (I don't see any testing scripts there)
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 594 2016-02-04T12:37:02  <Sprntz> list
 595 2016-02-04T12:37:45  <Sprntz> hi
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 759 2016-02-04T17:21:36  <kanzure> jl2012: "It is not possible for miners in one fork to attack or overtake the other fork without giving up the mining reward of their preferred fork."   but that was already the case, wasn't it?
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 761 2016-02-04T17:22:02  <kanzure> e.g. in absence of your proposal, it is still true that miners have to mine on top of blocks in the fork that they are attacking, regardless of the hard-fork mechanisms, i think.
 762 2016-02-04T17:22:24  <jl2012> the old fork can attack to new fork
 763 2016-02-04T17:22:40  <jl2012> say BIP101
 764 2016-02-04T17:23:27  <jl2012> yes, that's only one way. I can clarify
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 768 2016-02-04T17:29:01  <Tasoshi> they don't have to attack. The fact that they easily can just makes the chain fully insecure, and thus makes it have 0 value
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 775 2016-02-04T17:38:40  <kanzure> Tasoshi: i suspect that such an adversarial environment would make any chain have zero value.
 776 2016-02-04T17:40:02  <Tasoshi> Not really, if you have one chain with say 1 miner or many cpu miners, vs 1 chain with computation worth in hundreds of millions or billions, it is only one chain which is fully insecure conceptually and therefore can have no value
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 787 2016-02-04T17:57:16  <Luke-Jr> wumpus: When GitHub fixes the PR stuff, I have a travis branch in my clone to PR
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 818 2016-02-04T19:00:37  <wumpus> meeting?
 819 2016-02-04T19:00:51  <phantomcircuit> is it that time?
 820 2016-02-04T19:00:52  <petertodd> wumpus: hol dit in -core-dev?
 821 2016-02-04T19:00:53  <sipa> OP_TRUE
 822 2016-02-04T19:01:02  <wumpus> #meetingstart
 823 2016-02-04T19:01:06  <wumpus> #startmeeting
 824 2016-02-04T19:01:06  <lightningbot`> Meeting started Thu Feb  4 19:01:06 2016 UTC.  The chair is wumpus. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
 825 2016-02-04T19:01:06  <lightningbot`> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
 826 2016-02-04T19:01:13  <wumpus> petertodd: should have been announced on the mailing list
 827 2016-02-04T19:01:19  <petertodd> wumpus: good point!
 828 2016-02-04T19:01:25  <wumpus> proposed topics?
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 830 2016-02-04T19:01:29  <petertodd> sipa: I need to reply to you and think about your points raised
 831 2016-02-04T19:01:43  <sipa> petertodd: what where when?
 832 2016-02-04T19:01:53  <petertodd> sipa: mailing list, re: segwit upgrade procedures
 833 2016-02-04T19:01:54  <sipa> ah, the segwit proposed changes?
 834 2016-02-04T19:01:59  <petertodd> sipa: yup
 835 2016-02-04T19:02:00  <sipa> yeah, let's do that there
 836 2016-02-04T19:02:03  <petertodd> sipa: agreed
 837 2016-02-04T19:02:14  <jtimon> proposed topic move the meeting to -core-dev next time?
 838 2016-02-04T19:02:16  <wumpus> #topic segwit proposed changes
 839 2016-02-04T19:02:17  <petertodd> sipa: just wanted to be clear discussion was ongoing
 840 2016-02-04T19:02:52  <sipa> petertodd proposed a change that would make future consensus-data-adding softforks easier to deploy; discussion ongoing
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 842 2016-02-04T19:03:09  <petertodd> so... I'm working on that prev-block-proof thing still, and I think I'll have that ready for review in a few more days
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 844 2016-02-04T19:03:50  <jtimon> petertodd: can you give more details about the "prev-block-proof thing"?
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 846 2016-02-04T19:04:01  <petertodd> as for the consensus-data-adding thing, I'm leaning towards saying it should be the last thing we make a decision about, with anything more complex than adding another field have the onus on me/whomever to have running code implementing it
 847 2016-02-04T19:04:36  <petertodd> jtimon: sure. So, I want to make sure miners must prove they, or a trusted third-party, had a copy of the previous block's data to be able to create a new block.
 848 2016-02-04T19:05:10  <petertodd> jtimon: issue being fixed is the fact that with segwit, it's possible to only transfer the data required to update the UTXO set, without the data showing that those changes were valid
 849 2016-02-04T19:05:39  <petertodd> jtimon: so to fix that, basically rehash the previous block with a nonce
 850 2016-02-04T19:06:00  <jtimon> did this affected SPV mining or that was another thing?
 851 2016-02-04T19:06:26  <petertodd> jtimon: this *can* be used to stop SPV mining entirely, although whether we do this or not is an implementation detail
 852 2016-02-04T19:06:33  <petertodd> jtimon: er, I should say, implementation decision
 853 2016-02-04T19:06:48  <jtimon> ok, thanks
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 855 2016-02-04T19:06:56  <Tasoshi> wouldn't lack of SPV mining make mining fully inefficient?
 856 2016-02-04T19:07:10  <petertodd> for instance, we could say validationless mining of empty blocks is allowed, but not blocks with transactions in them
 857 2016-02-04T19:07:21  <Tasoshi> by delaying block propagation
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 859 2016-02-04T19:07:49  <petertodd> Tasoshi: validationless mining breaks the security assumptions of SPV wallets, so we have good reasons to either stop it fully, or restrict it to just empty blocks
 860 2016-02-04T19:07:54  <wumpus> the whole point of miners is to validate
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 862 2016-02-04T19:08:20  <Tasoshi> yes, and they can spv mining in a way that ensures security is maintained
 863 2016-02-04T19:08:25  <petertodd> wumpus: in the current design of bitcoin :) possibly miners could also be seen as proving publication of data, but that's *not* the way bitcoin is designed right now
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 866 2016-02-04T19:08:38  <jtimon> yeah, I don't see how having fast-propagating empty blocks helps in any way
 867 2016-02-04T19:08:41  <sipa> Tasoshi: that sounds suspcisious to me
 868 2016-02-04T19:08:43  <petertodd> Tasoshi: yes, e.g. the mining of empty blocks
 869 2016-02-04T19:08:58  <petertodd> Tasoshi: mining blocks with transactions in them breaks the security assumptions in the current design
 870 2016-02-04T19:09:15  <sipa> petertodd: just empty blocks is no solution; you can trivially add a single miner-generated transaction that's known to be valid
 871 2016-02-04T19:09:24  <Tasoshi> https://bitslog.wordpress.com/2016/01/08/spv-mining-is-the-solution-not-the-problem/
 872 2016-02-04T19:09:40  <phantomcircuit> Tasoshi, spv mining or spv clients, pick one
 873 2016-02-04T19:09:54  <petertodd> sipa: oh, but I'm proposing potentially doing a version where you can enforce that the block must be empty to validationless mine
 874 2016-02-04T19:10:12  <Tasoshi> segwit will provide fraud proofs which I should think will ensure spv wallets follow the longest chain
 875 2016-02-04T19:10:16  <gmaxwell> or arbritary transactions, if you have some trusted aux data of whats already been mined.
 876 2016-02-04T19:10:51  <Tasoshi> that is no reason to stop mining from being efficient in my view anyway
 877 2016-02-04T19:10:53  <petertodd> Tasoshi: segwit is a long way from providing fraud proofs, and fraud proofs are *not* the current security model of bitcoin, and may not even work in general
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 879 2016-02-04T19:11:07  <sipa> Tasoshi: fraud proofs are not part of the current proposal; they just enable them
 880 2016-02-04T19:11:29  <petertodd> Tasoshi: note that what I'm proposing does not preclude later redsigns that re-enable validationless mining
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 882 2016-02-04T19:11:42  <shea256> Hi everyone, just wanted to introduce myself. This is the first meeting I'm sitting in on.
 883 2016-02-04T19:11:48  <sipa> shea256: hi there!
 884 2016-02-04T19:11:51  <jtimon> petertodd: between completely removing SPV mining and allowing it for empty blocks...I can't really think of a reason for chosing the latter
 885 2016-02-04T19:12:21  <petertodd> jtimon: my preference is the former too, but we'll have to see what's viable politically
 886 2016-02-04T19:12:28  <sipa> i'm a bit skeptical about whether the segwit-enabled download-only-base-data model is one that is interesting
 887 2016-02-04T19:12:37  <Tasoshi> because by stopping spv mining you are stopping block propagation which creates a fully inefficient system
 888 2016-02-04T19:12:47  <wumpus> Tasoshi: you're repeating yourself, stop it
 889 2016-02-04T19:12:51  <cfields> this discussion seems a bit out of scope for an irc meeting :)
 890 2016-02-04T19:12:52  <Tasoshi> we could instead work on making spv mining fully safe and secure
 891 2016-02-04T19:12:58  <petertodd> cfields: agrees
 892 2016-02-04T19:13:01  <sipa> cfields: agree
 893 2016-02-04T19:13:02  <petertodd> cfields: er, agreed
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 895 2016-02-04T19:13:26  <sipa> we can discuss this after the meeting
 896 2016-02-04T19:13:26  <phantomcircuit> petertodd, have you written up the proposal for this?
 897 2016-02-04T19:13:30  <petertodd> Tasoshi: sorry, but the above gets into very technical details about the nuance of what exactly bitcoin is and how it functions - probably not appropriate for a IRC meeting focusing on short-term development
 898 2016-02-04T19:13:40  <jtimon> petertodd: I don't remember saying I had any preference here, but I still don't see how allowing it for empty blocks would make it more viable politically, what's the alleged advantage?
 899 2016-02-04T19:13:42  <Tasoshi> sure
 900 2016-02-04T19:13:57  <petertodd> jtimon: basically if miners really like their validationless mining setups :)
 901 2016-02-04T19:14:07  <Tasoshi> just wanted to raise my objections...
 902 2016-02-04T19:14:13  <petertodd> jtimon: personally, I'll explaing it in terms of leveling the playing field
 903 2016-02-04T19:14:15  <phantomcircuit> jtimon, everybody doing validation-less mining is already creating empty blocks anyways
 904 2016-02-04T19:14:18  <petertodd> Tasoshi: I'd suggest you raise them on list
 905 2016-02-04T19:14:47  <sipa> other topic?
 906 2016-02-04T19:14:56  <sipa> how is 0.12 doing?
 907 2016-02-04T19:15:08  <wumpus> #topic 0.12.0
 908 2016-02-04T19:15:13  <jtimon> petertodd: oh, to keep miners happy mining empty blocks with subsidy...but nobody is arguing that "fast" empty blocks are an advantage for anyone else, right?
 909 2016-02-04T19:15:15  <btcdrak> We're at RC3
 910 2016-02-04T19:15:16  <wumpus> we've just tagged rc3
 911 2016-02-04T19:15:25  <wumpus> hopefully nothing critical comes up and this can be final
 912 2016-02-04T19:15:48  <jtimon> did something critical came up in rc2?
 913 2016-02-04T19:16:10  <wumpus> yes
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 915 2016-02-04T19:16:31  <cfields> gitian builders: we've requested a new windows signing cert so that we don't run into problems with win7+ and it's sha1 deprecation. Sigs should be pushed today barring any complications.
 916 2016-02-04T19:16:35  <jtimon> ok, just wanted to confirm what was the criteria for creating a new rc
 917 2016-02-04T19:16:35  *** CubicEarth has joined #bitcoin-dev
 918 2016-02-04T19:16:37  <wumpus> e.g. the seeds update
 919 2016-02-04T19:16:55  <wumpus> and #7438
 920 2016-02-04T19:18:00  <wumpus> ok, next topic?
 921 2016-02-04T19:18:24  <btcdrak> sequence locks
 922 2016-02-04T19:18:34  <Tasoshi> is there an update on segwit?
 923 2016-02-04T19:18:39  <wumpus> #topic sequence locks
 924 2016-02-04T19:18:54  <wumpus> Tasoshi: we had segwit as first topic
 925 2016-02-04T19:19:14  <btcdrak> OK so this is more information than anything, but #7184 (the BIP68 implementation) is done and gathering Tested ACKs, including from some of the Lightning guys.
 926 2016-02-04T19:19:16  <Tasoshi> ah, sorry, sequence locks it is
 927 2016-02-04T19:19:27  <petertodd> btw: re, sequence locks, something that maybe whasn't been widely pointed out is that BIP68 is useful by itself with segwit
 928 2016-02-04T19:19:27  <btcdrak> It's really time to look at getting this stuff merged
 929 2016-02-04T19:19:32  <btcdrak> same for #6564
 930 2016-02-04T19:19:43  <wumpus> yes it's looking quite good
 931 2016-02-04T19:19:49  <wumpus> is the BIP finalized and merged now?
 932 2016-02-04T19:19:57  <btcdrak> so I'd like an action point if possible to review and test ACK #7184 and  #6564
 933 2016-02-04T19:20:08  <btcdrak> wumpus: BIPs are all merged and final
 934 2016-02-04T19:20:09  <wumpus> #action review and test ACK #7184 and  #6564
 935 2016-02-04T19:20:15  <wumpus> btcdrak: awesome
 936 2016-02-04T19:20:35  <btcdrak> one last point
 937 2016-02-04T19:20:48  <jtimon> yes please, let's finally merge this
 938 2016-02-04T19:20:55  <btcdrak> there are sme test scripts from aj  at https://github.com/ajtowns/op_csv-test
 939 2016-02-04T19:21:16  <btcdrak> you need to merge both PRs together to use them ofc. I did so at https://github.com/btcdrak/bitcoin/tree/sequenceandcsv
 940 2016-02-04T19:21:30  <btcdrak> that's it :)
 941 2016-02-04T19:21:51  *** rmwb has joined #bitcoin-dev
 942 2016-02-04T19:21:57  <jtimon> or just merge #7184 first and add those tests to #6564 ?
 943 2016-02-04T19:23:22  <petertodd> jtimon: I think merging $7184 first is fine
 944 2016-02-04T19:24:10  <petertodd> jtimon: previously I've been against separating the two, but I think I was wrong about that given that BIP68 is useful w/ segwit on it's own
 945 2016-02-04T19:24:21  <btcdrak> jtimon: we dont have a framework to add those kinds of tests that I am aware of
 946 2016-02-04T19:25:04  <jtimon> well I was never against doing both together, but maybe separating them could have accelerated the process (it clearly hasn)
 947 2016-02-04T19:25:07  <wumpus> #link https://github.com/ajtowns/op_csv-test
 948 2016-02-04T19:25:09  <btcdrak> petertodd: I'm especially pleased that downstream consumers have done extensive testing and found the code useful for their cases.
 949 2016-02-04T19:25:09  <jtimon> t
 950 2016-02-04T19:25:26  <petertodd> btcdrak: +1 - that's one of the most important steps!
 951 2016-02-04T19:25:30  <wumpus> #link https://github.com/btcdrak/bitcoin/tree/sequenceandcsv
 952 2016-02-04T19:26:22  <jtimon> btcdrak: oh, I thought you had added those tests to btcdrak/sequenceandcsv, never mind then
 953 2016-02-04T19:26:35  <wumpus> what kind of tests are these?
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 957 2016-02-04T19:27:18  <wumpus> we have unit tests, and functinoal RPC tests + P2P tests, large chance they can be integrated somehow?
 958 2016-02-04T19:28:01  *** conner_ has quit IRC
 959 2016-02-04T19:28:08  <jtimon> I believe they are testing an specific smart contract protocol, like a payment channel or something, but I'm not really sure
 960 2016-02-04T19:28:24  *** kaalia has quit IRC
 961 2016-02-04T19:28:29  <wumpus> okay, well if there's something you need re : test integration let me know
 962 2016-02-04T19:28:36  <btcdrak> wumpus: python smart contract tests, depends on petertodd's python-bitcoinlib
 963 2016-02-04T19:29:06  <petertodd> note that I think we're still missing transaction-level unit tests, and I'd NACK an actual soft-fork on that basis
 964 2016-02-04T19:29:12  <btcdrak> wumpus: I think they are good as documentation rather than automated tests
 965 2016-02-04T19:29:38  <btcdrak> petertodd: well we're at mempool-only stage now. softforking PR is a new round :)
 966 2016-02-04T19:29:41  <wumpus> petertodd: having the mempool-only pulls merged is good for testing, though
 967 2016-02-04T19:29:50  <petertodd> btcdrak: yup, I am happy for this to be merged mempool only
 968 2016-02-04T19:29:59  <wumpus> petertodd: I think NACKing ahead of ourselves is not constructive
 969 2016-02-04T19:30:04  <petertodd> btcdrak: backing out a mempool-only opcoe isn't a big deal
 970 2016-02-04T19:30:13  <wumpus> right, it's been done before
 971 2016-02-04T19:30:15  <petertodd> wumpus: just wanted to be clear :)
 972 2016-02-04T19:30:18  <btcdrak> wumpus: He's the Clief Naysayer, he must!
 973 2016-02-04T19:30:26  <btcdrak> err Chief even
 974 2016-02-04T19:30:33  <wumpus> though I prefer fixing over reverting :)
 975 2016-02-04T19:30:35  <petertodd> btcdrak: I Naysay your speling :P
 976 2016-02-04T19:30:37  *** gdm85 has quit IRC
 977 2016-02-04T19:31:33  <jtimon> other topic?
 978 2016-02-04T19:31:38  <wumpus> ok, more topics?
 979 2016-02-04T19:31:39  <btcdrak> well I'll get cracking the whip this week and maybe we can look at merge possibility next meeting
 980 2016-02-04T19:32:01  *** frankenmint has joined #bitcoin-dev
 981 2016-02-04T19:32:32  <btcdrak> wumpus: I just want to point out I published the EOL policy on the website as we discussed a while back https://bitcoincore.org/en/lifecycle/
 982 2016-02-04T19:32:33  <jtimon> or the meeting after the next meeting
 983 2016-02-04T19:32:51  <wumpus> btcdrak: yes should be pretty close now
 984 2016-02-04T19:33:02  <wumpus> #link  https://bitcoincore.org/en/lifecycle/
 985 2016-02-04T19:33:25  <wumpus> ok, if there's no further topics
 986 2016-02-04T19:33:26  *** gdm85 has joined #bitcoin-dev
 987 2016-02-04T19:33:33  <wumpus> #endmeeting
 988 2016-02-04T19:33:33  <lightningbot`> Meeting ended Thu Feb  4 19:33:33 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
 989 2016-02-04T19:33:33  <lightningbot`> Minutes:        http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-dev/2016/bitcoin-dev.2016-02-04-19.01.html
 990 2016-02-04T19:33:33  <lightningbot`> Minutes (text): http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-dev/2016/bitcoin-dev.2016-02-04-19.01.txt
 991 2016-02-04T19:33:33  <lightningbot`> Log:            http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-dev/2016/bitcoin-dev.2016-02-04-19.01.log.html
 992 2016-02-04T19:34:58  <sipa> btcdrak: is the information there correct? the 0.8 end of life seems very early!
 993 2016-02-04T19:35:47  <petertodd> sipa: do we know of anyone using 0.8?
 994 2016-02-04T19:36:15  <Tasoshi> not sure an 0.8 node can be called a real full node to be honest
 995 2016-02-04T19:36:22  <sipa> you're all missing the point
 996 2016-02-04T19:36:31  <sipa> that page claims 0.8 went EOL the day it was released
 997 2016-02-04T19:36:32  <petertodd> sipa: how so?
 998 2016-02-04T19:36:36  *** frankenmint has quit IRC
 999 2016-02-04T19:36:43  <petertodd> sipa: haha, indeed!
1000 2016-02-04T19:36:50  <wumpus> last 0.8 tag I have is v0.8.7rc1, Feb 21 16:31:49 2014 +0100
1001 2016-02-04T19:37:08  <btcdrak> sipa: copy pasta errr lemme fix that
1002 2016-02-04T19:37:16  <btcdrak> but in any case it is EOL
1003 2016-02-04T19:37:21  <sipa> yes, it is
1004 2016-02-04T19:38:16  <midnightmagic> warning: updating from VirtualBox-5.0.10 to 5.0.14 on OSX can cause saved-state virtual machines to fail to resume. Correction is to revert to 5.0.10 by re-running the 5.0.10 installer.
1005 2016-02-04T19:38:20  * midnightmagic shakes fist
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1008 2016-02-04T19:40:40  <Tasoshi> There are apparently some 100 nodes in all running 0.8 to 0.9 though according to this https://bitnodes.21.co/nodes/?q=/Satoshi:0.8.5/
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1011 2016-02-04T19:41:30  <petertodd> Tasoshi: note that some of those nodes may not even be real, as we know that network monitoring firms are creating a lot of fake ones, and they've been caught using old node versions in the past
1012 2016-02-04T19:41:41  <Tasoshi> I suspect they are just backups in case things go wrong, but in that case, you can just bring up an old version node...
1013 2016-02-04T19:41:49  <midnightmagic> error you will see might be VERR_SSM_LOADED_TOO_MUCH
1014 2016-02-04T19:42:01  <wumpus> yes, the old versions can still connect to the network, EOL or not
1015 2016-02-04T19:42:02  <instagibbs> Even their *fake* Core software is old. Kind of sad.
1016 2016-02-04T19:42:13  <Tasoshi> ah, could be
1017 2016-02-04T19:42:16  <shea256> that page shows there are 204 0.8 nodes
1018 2016-02-04T19:42:25  <petertodd> Tasoshi: anyway, unmaintained installations aren't relevant, as those people aren't going to upgrade to a newer 0.8/0.9 backport anyway
1019 2016-02-04T19:42:27  <midnightmagic> Additionally, I personally will deliberately bock 21.co from accessing anything under my control, which includes anyone hanging off the systems I admin, so..
1020 2016-02-04T19:42:30  * midnightmagic shrugs
1021 2016-02-04T19:43:12  <petertodd> IMO we should only maintain old versions based on actual demand - we have good reason to think that exists broadly for one major version back, but beyond that is more dubious from what I've seen
1022 2016-02-04T19:43:13  <btcdrak> sipa: updated
1023 2016-02-04T19:43:52  <btcdrak> petertodd: so maintained is this plus previous version. But after that, there is a gap where we will patch for critical security issues
1024 2016-02-04T19:44:03  <btcdrak> certainly that is the status quo
1025 2016-02-04T19:44:08  <wumpus> petertodd: yes, demand versus amount of effort
1026 2016-02-04T19:44:36  <Tasoshi> petertodd, I think some people, especially the bitcoin-assets guys, seem to be keen to maintain old nodes, even as old as 0.5. I think they probably perceive them as some sort of backup, but, I find it inefficient because 0.5 or 0.8 code is not that hard to find/compile...
1027 2016-02-04T19:44:37  <wumpus> some very critical things may be backported a version further
1028 2016-02-04T19:44:58  <petertodd> wumpus: also good to remind people that it's always possible to pay for that effort if a business really needs an old version for some reason
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1033 2016-02-04T19:47:45  <Tasoshi> so I agree, I think backporting to even 0.11 is prob too much, the other node maintainers probably have the skills to update their node version with whatever patch if they wish
1034 2016-02-04T19:48:04  <wumpus> petertodd: sure, that's always possible
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1078 2016-02-04T20:42:13  <s4n1ty> Hey guys, is anyone aware of whether Bitcoin contracts were inspired by the concept of "Signed Subspace Keys" in Freenet?  The concept seems extremely similar to the original proposal for SSKs - http://goo.gl/Pfeb7o
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1157 2016-02-04T21:28:37  <Lauda> libsecp256k1 Does not affect validation time, right?
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1162 2016-02-04T21:31:44  <sipa> Lauda: in 0.12 validation is switched to libsecp256k1, and it makes validation much faster (especially on x86_64)
1163 2016-02-04T21:31:57  <Lauda> sipa doesn't this solve the long validation time of 2 MB blocks?
1164 2016-02-04T21:32:22  <sipa> if you're referring to the O(n^2) hashing problem, no
1165 2016-02-04T21:32:53  <Lauda> That's one of the things that I've read about on the roadmap. Yes, that's it. Why not?
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1167 2016-02-04T21:33:23  <sipa> Because that's about the computation of the hashes that are being verified.
1168 2016-02-04T21:33:58  <sipa> However, segwit softfork proposal does contain a solution for that (which only applies to transactions choosing to use it, but the other ones are limited to 1 MB)
1169 2016-02-04T21:34:36  <Lauda> Those choosing to use it? You mean those choosing to use segwit?
1170 2016-02-04T21:34:40  <sipa> yes
1171 2016-02-04T21:35:08  <Lauda> BIP 143 or?
1172 2016-02-04T21:35:32  <sipa> indeed
1173 2016-02-04T21:35:50  <sipa> it has a different signature hashing algorithm that's worst case O(n) in the size of blocks
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1176 2016-02-04T21:36:48  <Lauda> So O(n)^2 becomes O(n) in the worst case scenario?
1177 2016-02-04T21:37:02  <Lauda> Could BIP 143 be implemented without segwit?
1178 2016-02-04T21:37:07  <zooko> s4n1ty: hi there. ☺ I don't recall Satoshi citing Freenet. I'm not equipped to judge if the similarities are more likely to indicate uncredited derivation, common ancestry (forth-like languages), o r parallel invention.
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1180 2016-02-04T21:37:40  <sipa> Lauda: yes, but it would still be optional, so not much of a solution
1181 2016-02-04T21:37:52  <sipa> Lauda: or you have to break existing wallets
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1183 2016-02-04T21:38:16  <Lauda> Well it is definitely better than the workaround that Gavin proposed in his BIP?
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1185 2016-02-04T21:42:34  <s4n1ty> zooko: Hey, yes, Freenet isn't cited.  Given that we didn't even implement the original proposal it seems unlikely that anyone other than a very ardent follower of Freenet's mailing lists back then would be aware of it.
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1189 2016-02-04T21:43:58  <zooko> s4n1ty: I for one wasn't aware of it, and as you know I was a follower of Freenet. ☺
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1223 2016-02-04T22:28:21  <petertodd> zooko: I'm amused at how being involved in freenet back then now makes you look like you may be satoshi :)
1224 2016-02-04T22:31:01  <gmaxwell> s4n1ty left, but _I_ was aware of the fancy SSK stuff, and never thought it has any particular resemblance to Bitcoin.
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1226 2016-02-04T22:31:27  <petertodd> gmaxwell: not bitcoin in general, just the scripting scheme
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1233 2016-02-04T22:36:22  <gmaxwell> I know thats what I meant.
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1242 2016-02-04T22:52:01  <Chris_Stewart_5> What does the OP_SIZE operator do exactly? The documentation is sort of confusing
1243 2016-02-04T22:52:07  <Chris_Stewart_5> the docs say Pushes the string length of the top element of the stack (without popping it).
1244 2016-02-04T22:52:26  <Chris_Stewart_5> what exactly is meant by 'string length' the hexadecimal representation of the number?
1245 2016-02-04T22:52:43  <kadoban> Chris_Stewart_5: The size in bytes of the data item on the top of the stack
1246 2016-02-04T22:52:47  <kadoban> Chris_Stewart_5: So … 1/2 that
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1249 2016-02-04T22:54:21  <Chris_Stewart_5> kadoban: I'm not sure if that is right, 128 -> 0x80 and OP_SIZE of that is 2
1250 2016-02-04T22:54:34  <Chris_Stewart_5> while 127 -> 0x7f is OP_SIZE of 1
1251 2016-02-04T22:54:55  <Chris_Stewart_5> is that twos complement?
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1253 2016-02-04T22:55:05  <kadoban> Chris_Stewart_5: 128 is actually 0x0080 or something like that I believe
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1255 2016-02-04T22:55:17  <kadoban> Chris_Stewart_5: 0x80 would be … negative something
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1257 2016-02-04T22:56:34  <Chris_Stewart_5> https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#safe=off&q=0x80+to+decimal
1258 2016-02-04T22:57:22  <kadoban> Chris_Stewart_5: How bitcoin scripts interpret data items as numbers is the important part here. 0x80 as bytes, would be a negative number, how bitcoin scripts interpret them.
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1260 2016-02-04T22:58:50  <kadoban> Chris_Stewart_5: 0x80 is actually "negative zero". https://bittyscript.emptypath.com/?sig=0x80+OP_1&sigfmt=asm&pubkey=OP_ADD&pubfmt=asm , if that happens to help
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1262 2016-02-04T23:00:25  <Chris_Stewart_5> Yeah that does help. Thanks kadoban
1263 2016-02-04T23:00:46  <kadoban> Sure
1264 2016-02-04T23:01:07  <kadoban> (note that tool is a work-in-progress, it probably currently lies about a bunch of stuff)
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1286 2016-02-04T23:27:54  <kolifred> free bot for getting bitcoins http://bit.ly/BTC_BOT
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