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39 2016-02-11T01:39:20 <Chris_Stewart_5> ["", "0 0 'a' 'b' 2 CHECKMULTISIG VERIFY DEPTH 0 EQUAL", "P2SH,STRICTENC", "Test from up to 20 pubkeys, all not checked"] what is the '2' for in this test case?
40 2016-02-11T01:39:38 <Chris_Stewart_5> Is this for bug in OP_CHECKMULTISIG that requires it consume another arguement?
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48 2016-02-11T01:46:45 <Chris_Stewart_5> or is that what the first 0 represents in the example scriptPubKey?
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55 2016-02-11T02:00:41 <kadoban> Chris_Stewart_5: 2 is the number of public keys, which are the 'a' and 'b'. That first zero is for the bug, yeah.
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60 2016-02-11T02:05:17 <Chris_Stewart_5> kadoban: Thanks
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209 2016-02-11T07:00:10 <btcdrak> miners have released a statement about Bitcoin Classic https://twitter.com/btcroundtable/status/697672824282939393
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211 2016-02-11T07:05:11 <aj> so that's 60% of the hashrate (f2pool 29%, bitfury 17%, btcc 14%) ?
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226 2016-02-11T07:32:59 <bsm1175321> Cooler heads prevail, thankfully.
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303 2016-02-11T10:23:21 <wiz> does anyone have a script/utility to test low/high S value ECDSA signature TX conformity
304 2016-02-11T10:25:59 <wumpus> not that I know, but you could roll something with bitcoin-pythonlib quite easily I think
305 2016-02-11T10:26:44 <wiz> "The Swiss Army Knife of the Bitcoin protocol." - sweet
306 2016-02-11T10:28:21 <wumpus> (bitcoin core doesn't have a "validate but don't send" RPC, maybe it should)
307 2016-02-11T10:30:48 <gmaxwell> wumpus: every time I've gone to write that I realized that I also needed parent transactions and decided it wasn't important enough to do now.
308 2016-02-11T10:31:13 <gmaxwell> (perhaps a block proposal...)
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310 2016-02-11T10:36:12 <wumpus> yes it'd need an argument for parent transactions, maybe just take a list instead of a single tx
311 2016-02-11T10:37:18 <wumpus> right, that'd be effectively a block proposal
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352 2016-02-11T12:03:15 <waxwing> wiz: you could just look at it :)
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410 2016-02-11T14:31:36 <btcdrak> gavinandresen is deleting comments again from his PR.
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427 2016-02-11T15:02:08 <JackH> where
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430 2016-02-11T15:04:11 <paveljanik> btcdrak, people do not like to be repeatedly educated about their mistakes...
431 2016-02-11T15:05:03 <paveljanik> lets live with it...
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436 2016-02-11T15:08:05 <JackH> paveljanik, in Gavin's case this is no longer an excuse
437 2016-02-11T15:08:15 <JackH> this is the third damn time he pulls out the big block glove
438 2016-02-11T15:08:19 <JackH> enough is enough from this man
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440 2016-02-11T15:08:46 <JackH> we are in some eternal stall mode because of fucking gavin
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613 2016-02-11T18:01:08 <Luke-Jr> blah, going to miss today's meeting again
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619 2016-02-11T18:08:09 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: oh :( why?
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626 2016-02-11T18:19:27 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: taking sick baby to dr.
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628 2016-02-11T18:19:40 <Luke-Jr> appt is at 2:30 and it's a 30 minute drive
629 2016-02-11T18:19:55 <wumpus> ouch
630 2016-02-11T18:20:35 <Luke-Jr> maybe I can get it rescheduled slightly. my wife forgot to confirm some things first
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634 2016-02-11T18:23:00 <bittrex-richie> what is the primary reason for wallets being slow? number of tx's? number of unspent inputs?
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636 2016-02-11T18:26:26 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: may I include system univalue support (the one merged to master) in backports for 0.12.1?
637 2016-02-11T18:26:42 <maaku> Luke-Jr: :(
638 2016-02-11T18:26:48 <maaku> hope all is well
639 2016-02-11T18:27:17 <Luke-Jr> maaku: we're all sick here :/ hopefully I'll get over it soon, but my main concern is the baby wheezing
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654 2016-02-11T18:37:42 <Luke-Jr> looks like we're stuck with the 2:30 appt
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663 2016-02-11T18:46:24 <bittrex-richie> what is the primary reason for wallets being slow? number of tx's? number of unspent inputs? -- for context... i'm talking about a 2gb wallet with 500k+ transactions and usually anywhere between 20-30k unspent inputs.
664 2016-02-11T18:48:23 <Luke-Jr> bittrex-richie: lack of optimisation
665 2016-02-11T18:48:45 <Luke-Jr> bittrex-richie: recently we did some work on this, but I don't know how much is in 0.12
666 2016-02-11T18:49:08 <bittrex-richie> is there anything i can do on my end? does reducing the number of unspents help at all?
667 2016-02-11T18:49:22 <bittrex-richie> is it a diskio problem? or a cpu problem? so i know where to throw more resources at?
668 2016-02-11T18:49:24 <Luke-Jr> bittrex-richie: if it is important to you, you may wish to consider hiring a dev to focus on it with some of those unspent outputs ;p
669 2016-02-11T18:49:43 <Luke-Jr> someone should probably do benchmarking
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672 2016-02-11T18:51:00 <bittrex-richie> ehhe... we might do that one day..
673 2016-02-11T18:51:06 <bittrex-richie> just curious what i can do in the shortterm.
674 2016-02-11T18:51:08 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: yes, system univalue support is fine for 0.12.1, just not make it default
675 2016-02-11T18:51:22 <Luke-Jr> bittrex-richie: have you tried 0.12 yet?
676 2016-02-11T18:51:40 <Luke-Jr> (disclaimer: all software is as-is, no warranty if it destroys the wallet)
677 2016-02-11T18:51:44 <Luke-Jr> (make backups etc)
678 2016-02-11T18:52:32 *** bityogi has joined #bitcoin-dev
679 2016-02-11T18:53:25 *** xMopxShell has joined #bitcoin-dev
680 2016-02-11T18:54:15 <bittrex-richie> hehe. no
681 2016-02-11T18:54:18 <bittrex-richie> still running a pretty old version
682 2016-02-11T18:54:47 <Luke-Jr> well, the easy thing seems to be to try to see if it's improved enough already ;)
683 2016-02-11T18:55:03 <bittrex-richie> scary proposition heh
684 2016-02-11T18:55:20 <Luke-Jr> any optimisation is going to have risks
685 2016-02-11T18:55:29 <Luke-Jr> sticking to old versions has risks too ;)
686 2016-02-11T18:55:40 *** gmaxwell sets mode: +vgmsip wumpus
687 2016-02-11T18:55:40 *** ChanServ sets mode: -s
688 2016-02-11T18:55:40 *** gmaxwell sets mode: +oor maaku sdaftuar
689 2016-02-11T18:55:48 <gmaxwell> ahhh crap
690 2016-02-11T18:55:59 <wumpus> the primary reason for wallets being slow is high number of transactions
691 2016-02-11T18:56:15 <wumpus> and for coin selection number of unspent outputs
692 2016-02-11T18:56:30 *** gmaxwell sets mode: -oo maaku sdaftuar
693 2016-02-11T18:57:01 *** gmaxwell sets mode: -gmip
694 2016-02-11T18:57:07 <Luke-Jr> there's a reason Bitcoin is still an experiment :P
695 2016-02-11T18:57:10 <wumpus> 500k+ transactions is really pushing it, that's much outside the general use case scenario of the core wallet
696 2016-02-11T18:57:24 <bittrex-richie> will reducing the unseptns help? i'm about tocreate raws to just eat through eveyrthing to 0
697 2016-02-11T18:57:28 *** gmaxwell sets mode: +vvv wumpus gmaxwell cfields
698 2016-02-11T18:57:28 *** gmaxwell sets mode: +vvvv btcdrak sipa jtimon maaku
699 2016-02-11T18:57:28 *** gmaxwell sets mode: +vvvv sdaftuar phantomcircuit CodeShark petertodd
700 2016-02-11T18:57:28 *** gmaxwell sets mode: +vvoF phantomcircuit morcos paveljanik
701 2016-02-11T18:57:38 <wumpus> what are you doing gmaxwell? :p
702 2016-02-11T18:57:48 *** gmaxwell sets mode: -o paveljanik
703 2016-02-11T18:58:05 *** gmaxwell sets mode: +v paveljanik
704 2016-02-11T18:58:08 <wumpus> bittrex-richie: that helps making selection (for send) faster
705 2016-02-11T18:58:26 *** NewLiberty_ has quit IRC
706 2016-02-11T18:59:06 <wumpus> in any case, no one is running it with those numbers, it would be interesting to benchmark/profile
707 2016-02-11T18:59:18 <gmaxwell> wumpus: setting voice on everyone who's been active in recent meetings so we have the option of setting mode +zm during the metting (sets it so new comments need to be approved... to avoid disruption from people that don't know a meeting is going on)
708 2016-02-11T18:59:27 <wumpus> though that only makes sense for a recent version
709 2016-02-11T18:59:51 <wumpus> gmaxwell: okay
710 2016-02-11T18:59:59 <gmaxwell> (and having some technical difficulties... but it's done now)
711 2016-02-11T19:00:00 <wumpus> makes sense
712 2016-02-11T19:00:18 <Luke-Jr> crap, I need to get going :x
713 2016-02-11T19:00:35 <wumpus> good luck Luke-Jr, hope all is well
714 2016-02-11T19:00:41 <wumpus> #meetingstart
715 2016-02-11T19:00:42 <Luke-Jr> thanks, enjoy the meeting I guess
716 2016-02-11T19:00:45 <wumpus> #startmeeting
717 2016-02-11T19:00:45 <lightningbot`> Meeting started Thu Feb 11 19:00:45 2016 UTC. The chair is wumpus. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
718 2016-02-11T19:00:45 <lightningbot`> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
719 2016-02-11T19:01:04 <wumpus> well thanks I guess :)
720 2016-02-11T19:01:30 *** gmaxwell sets mode: +v Luke-Jr
721 2016-02-11T19:01:36 <wumpus> topic proposals?
722 2016-02-11T19:01:50 <gmaxwell> Plans for RC37?
723 2016-02-11T19:01:58 <wumpus> last meeting we had as action items ACTION: review and test ACK #7184 and #6564 (wumpus, 19:20:09)
724 2016-02-11T19:02:03 <wumpus> almost gmaxwell
725 2016-02-11T19:02:24 <bittrex-richie> ok.. we'll see what happens if i empty this awllet out
726 2016-02-11T19:03:22 <gmaxwell> If cfields is around I'd like to hear an update about how his networking stack reworking is going.
727 2016-02-11T19:03:42 <wumpus> rc4 and rc5 were just tagged in quick succession, so we'll skip executables for rc4
728 2016-02-11T19:04:28 <cfields> gmaxwell: i'm hacking furiously trying to get it cleaned up. I've rewritten much of it a dozen or so times, but i've never considered it to be in a state where it's a good starting point for review.
729 2016-02-11T19:05:02 *** arthus has quit IRC
730 2016-02-11T19:05:13 <wumpus> rc6 to rc∞-1 can hopefully be skipped and this is finally final :)
731 2016-02-11T19:05:13 <cfields> gmaxwell: as i've been saying for ages now, hope to have it ready for review in the next week or so.
732 2016-02-11T19:05:35 <wumpus> #topic P2P code refactor
733 2016-02-11T19:06:22 *** _maddy has joined #bitcoin-dev
734 2016-02-11T19:06:26 *** achow101 has joined #bitcoin-dev
735 2016-02-11T19:06:37 <wumpus> yes I think it's time to seriously look at that now
736 2016-02-11T19:06:47 <sipa> agree
737 2016-02-11T19:06:55 <gmaxwell> cfields: okay, -- sounds totally reasonable. I was worrying a bit that you've gone heads down on it long enough that the result might be big enough to make reviewing really hard; ... but if you're spending all that time redoing it rather than adding more code, then it should be no issue. :)
738 2016-02-11T19:07:17 <cfields> gmaxwell: for a bit more info: i've whittled it down to little more than a replacement of the current networking threads. message parsing/processing/etc is intact for the sake of easier review/merge. I have refactors for those elsewhere, but as next steps
739 2016-02-11T19:07:26 <_maddy> Where do I find the format of the blk0001.dat file in source code?
740 2016-02-11T19:07:26 <wumpus> the time for something invasive like that to be merged is at the beginning of the release window, so around now, otherwise we'll probably have to postpone it to 0.14
741 2016-02-11T19:07:31 <cfields> wumpus / gmaxwell / sipa: understood
742 2016-02-11T19:07:46 *** gmaxwell sets mode: +zm
743 2016-02-11T19:08:20 <wumpus> okay clear, next topic?
744 2016-02-11T19:08:55 <sipa> BIP112/68/113 plans?
745 2016-02-11T19:08:57 <wumpus> #topic BIP68 review
746 2016-02-11T19:09:06 <morcos> is maaku here?
747 2016-02-11T19:09:09 <wumpus> how is the review of the BIP68 pulls going?
748 2016-02-11T19:09:19 *** DatBeeDoe has quit IRC
749 2016-02-11T19:09:27 <morcos> sdaftuar found some more mistakes, i need to fix those, can do this afternoon
750 2016-02-11T19:09:29 <wumpus> (sorry, wasn't able to look at it much myself this week)
751 2016-02-11T19:09:41 <morcos> but there is other work that needs to be done, such as the soft fork logic
752 2016-02-11T19:09:55 <wumpus> ok, yes let's focus on the mempool only stuf now
753 2016-02-11T19:10:11 <morcos> wumpus: i think i disagree
754 2016-02-11T19:10:15 <wumpus> I think that's quite enough
755 2016-02-11T19:10:30 <wumpus> why?
756 2016-02-11T19:10:31 <petertodd> morcos: soft fork needs better unit tests IMO
757 2016-02-11T19:10:34 <sipa> the GetMedianTimePast behaviour is already in, right?
758 2016-02-11T19:10:40 <morcos> several months ago sdaftuar found a mistake in the mempool code only be thinking about how the soft fork logic would apply
759 2016-02-11T19:11:11 <wumpus> yes, but I mean the softfork code won't be considered until the mempool-only enforcement is in for a while
760 2016-02-11T19:11:17 <wumpus> thinking about it can't hurt, sure
761 2016-02-11T19:11:23 <morcos> wumpus: not necessary, its already non standard
762 2016-02-11T19:11:27 <morcos> tx version 2
763 2016-02-11T19:11:34 <jtimon> morcos: the softfork logic is not going to be merged with the policy-only implementations, we've never done it, why change now?
764 2016-02-11T19:11:50 <wumpus> well that's completely different than what was discussed last week ...
765 2016-02-11T19:11:58 <jtimon> specially when we would hopefully deploy it with bip9...
766 2016-02-11T19:12:05 <morcos> sorry , i don't think i was in the meeting last week
767 2016-02-11T19:12:10 *** wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-dev
768 2016-02-11T19:12:18 <sipa> BIP113 needed mempool deployment before being safe as a softfork
769 2016-02-11T19:12:18 <morcos> i thought i skimmed the conversation but i must have missed that
770 2016-02-11T19:12:25 <sipa> but BIP68 and BIP112 don't, afaik
771 2016-02-11T19:12:47 <wumpus> introducing the softfork is going to require much more scrutiny, and tests, as petertodd says
772 2016-02-11T19:12:55 <morcos> in any case, i don't care if we merge the mempool code first and it might indeed make sense to do so, i just think we should look at the soft fork logic
773 2016-02-11T19:13:14 <sipa> how about we merge mempool logic in master only
774 2016-02-11T19:13:15 <maaku> morcos: yes I'm here
775 2016-02-11T19:13:21 *** _maddy has left #bitcoin-dev
776 2016-02-11T19:13:24 <jtimon> last week my hope was that at least bip68 would finally be merged today or before today...
777 2016-02-11T19:13:51 <wumpus> jtimon: you mean mempool-only right?
778 2016-02-11T19:13:58 <morcos> maaku: i was wondering whether you were going to take over BIP 68 etc.. stuff again.. in particular the soft fork logic for it.
779 2016-02-11T19:14:04 <sipa> and then backport mempool+softfork to 0.12.x when the softfork is ready
780 2016-02-11T19:14:05 <petertodd> morcos: by "soft fork logic" - i assume you mean something like bip9? I mean, the IsSuperMajority() mechanism is just a few lines of code
781 2016-02-11T19:14:13 <wumpus> sipa: agree
782 2016-02-11T19:14:31 <jtimon> wumpus: of course, and I meant on master only as well (we cannot backport for 12.1 until we actually have 12.0, right?)
783 2016-02-11T19:14:40 <wumpus> jtimon: absolutely
784 2016-02-11T19:14:45 <sipa> jtimon: yeah
785 2016-02-11T19:14:53 *** priidu has joined #bitcoin-dev
786 2016-02-11T19:14:55 <gmaxwell> we really need to migrate to a BIP9 style way of doing soft-forks...
787 2016-02-11T19:14:59 <morcos> ok i guess thats not unreasonable... if there is a change needed to the consensus logic in the mempool brought out by the softfork code , it doesn't matter if its only in master
788 2016-02-11T19:15:07 *** Biontic has joined #bitcoin-dev
789 2016-02-11T19:15:08 <sipa> gmaxwell: yes, but that needs usable code...
790 2016-02-11T19:15:29 *** wallet42 has quit IRC
791 2016-02-11T19:15:37 <morcos> consensus logic that is (re)used by the mempool only version
792 2016-02-11T19:16:21 <maaku> morcos: I intended to rebase the CSV code against your BIP 68 branch once that merges
793 2016-02-11T19:16:29 <morcos> ok, well i think 7184 can be merged after i fix sdaftuars comments, they are relatively straight forward, i'll leave as a separate commit and maybe a couple of people that reviewed prior can just ack and we can squash on merge
794 2016-02-11T19:17:07 <maaku> petertodd: BIP 68 hasn't really been reviewed with a mindset of consensus validation
795 2016-02-11T19:17:09 <sipa> oh, topic suggestion: squash/rebase/merge recommendations
796 2016-02-11T19:17:18 <morcos> maaku: yes, thats why i thought you were working on it again. but all of 68,112,113 need soft fork logic at some point...
797 2016-02-11T19:17:19 <sipa> maaku: i have
798 2016-02-11T19:17:45 *** wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-dev
799 2016-02-11T19:17:50 <maaku> (I know because serious bugs were found in the enforcement long after ACKs of 6312)
800 2016-02-11T19:17:59 <morcos> maaku: thats my point, some of us have been trying to review it with that mindset but it would be easier to do so if we see the soft fork logic
801 2016-02-11T19:18:00 <maaku> some by sipa some by sdaftuar, thank you
802 2016-02-11T19:18:31 <jtimon> great! next action review/test/merge #6564 after we finally merge #7148 ?
803 2016-02-11T19:18:45 *** wallet42 has quit IRC
804 2016-02-11T19:18:45 <petertodd> maaku: I did that with BIP68, and quickly came to the conclusion that it needed better unittests for consensus validation :)
805 2016-02-11T19:18:52 <maaku> morcos: imho we should merge BIP 68 policy-only, and open another PR with the soft-fork enforcement, just to get another round of ACKs specifically with an eye towards that
806 2016-02-11T19:18:54 <jtimon> I mean, it will need rebase first
807 2016-02-11T19:19:10 <wumpus> #action review/test/merge #7148 and #6564
808 2016-02-11T19:19:11 <morcos> maaku: yeah ok, as long as we are not backporting/releasing until we do that other PR, thats fine with me
809 2016-02-11T19:19:28 <morcos> wumpus: it's 7184, and we should hold off on 6564 till maaku rebases
810 2016-02-11T19:19:37 *** bsm117532 has joined #bitcoin-dev
811 2016-02-11T19:19:47 <jtimon> morcos: why that condition? we can backport as soon as we have a 12.0, no?
812 2016-02-11T19:19:50 <maaku> morcos: yeah the point is there's confusion about who has reviewed with an eye towards enforcement, and that's just delaying everything
813 2016-02-11T19:20:08 <sipa> jtimon: i would backport only as soon as there is softfork logic too
814 2016-02-11T19:20:20 <wumpus> yeah, it makes only sense to backport something complete
815 2016-02-11T19:20:32 <maaku> people are happy with 7184 (modulo some last minute fixes I saw go through), if we can merge that asap I'd be happy
816 2016-02-11T19:20:33 <sdaftuar> is the plan to only backport to 0.12?
817 2016-02-11T19:20:37 <wumpus> let's focus on getting the damn thing merged in master, this has been dragging along for too long
818 2016-02-11T19:20:38 <jtimon> I mean, I plan to backport it to https://github.com/jtimon/bitcoin/tree/backports-0.12 soon after it gets merged
819 2016-02-11T19:20:49 <maaku> (and I'll immediately rebase 6564 thereafter)
820 2016-02-11T19:20:55 <jtimon> why not merge it as policy only for 12.01?
821 2016-02-11T19:21:15 *** petrkr has quit IRC
822 2016-02-11T19:21:25 <maaku> when the soft-fork code is merged, it will be back ported to the two most recent releases, as per our recently adopted support policy
823 2016-02-11T19:21:27 <wumpus> because we need to make sure it's correct first
824 2016-02-11T19:21:27 <sipa> jtimon: what's the point?
825 2016-02-11T19:21:32 <wumpus> master is a good place to test things
826 2016-02-11T19:21:37 *** wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-dev
827 2016-02-11T19:21:45 <maaku> BIP 68 and 112 don't need to be back ported until enforcement
828 2016-02-11T19:21:47 <wumpus> can always be adapted, or reverted there
829 2016-02-11T19:21:52 <gmaxwell> a policy only softfork merge for an already non-standard softfork will disrupt deployment of the feature if it needs to change.
830 2016-02-11T19:21:53 <maaku> *until soft-fork deployment
831 2016-02-11T19:21:53 <wumpus> I dont like doing that on a release version
832 2016-02-11T19:22:02 *** pjorrit has joined #bitcoin-dev
833 2016-02-11T19:22:07 *** wallet42 has quit IRC
834 2016-02-11T19:22:23 <jtimon> sipa: having it ready? if it's not ready for 12.1 at least users will have it as policy-only...what's the reason not to do it?
835 2016-02-11T19:22:32 <gmaxwell> (because if the behavior changes we may need to first policy out the old behavior before the soft-fork can begin.)
836 2016-02-11T19:22:35 <sipa> jtimon: having it as policy only has no use
837 2016-02-11T19:22:40 <sipa> except testing
838 2016-02-11T19:22:45 <wumpus> right sipa
839 2016-02-11T19:22:49 <gmaxwell> it's not that it has no use, it has potential anti-use.
840 2016-02-11T19:22:51 <morcos> ok, so to summarize. i will add a small commit that address sdaftuars bugs within an hour of meeting end. a couple people will review/ACK and we can merge this thing today
841 2016-02-11T19:23:04 <morcos> then we'll leave in master until we write the soft fork logic
842 2016-02-11T19:23:09 <morcos> maybe that should be the next topic
843 2016-02-11T19:23:15 <jtimon> gmaxwell: mhmm, I hadn't thought about the potential anti-use...
844 2016-02-11T19:23:16 <morcos> what should that look like and who is doing it
845 2016-02-11T19:23:33 <wumpus> #topic soft fork logic
846 2016-02-11T19:24:05 <gmaxwell> (I'm fine with policy only for things where were quite sure that the logic is final, but are only delaying deployment e.g. because of other soft-forks in flight-- in this case, it should just be done as soon as it's final)
847 2016-02-11T19:24:09 <jtimon> depends on bip9, proposed topic bip9 implementations and plan forward
848 2016-02-11T19:24:44 *** mrkent has joined #bitcoin-dev
849 2016-02-11T19:24:50 <morcos> i'm sorry that i volunteered and withdrew from bip9 work, but i'm trying to find things to do that it is easier to do head down and not lose concentration.
850 2016-02-11T19:25:04 *** pjorrit has quit IRC
851 2016-02-11T19:25:37 <maaku> imho the issue of bip9 vs ISM should be determined by what is ready at the time that we are preparing the soft-fork enforcement code
852 2016-02-11T19:26:02 <maaku> so the question really is, when is the BIP 68/112(/113?) soft-fork going out?
853 2016-02-11T19:26:06 *** blazeme8 has joined #bitcoin-dev
854 2016-02-11T19:26:25 <morcos> maaku: the issue is there are so many outstanding potential soft forks, that if each keeps waiting for the others, that might delay them all. and if we just decided to do BIP 9 we'd stop having that problem
855 2016-02-11T19:26:30 <morcos> don't forget segwit
856 2016-02-11T19:26:50 <morcos> and don't forget we're far more likely now to have soft forks that we think are going to activate but maybe struggle to do so
857 2016-02-11T19:27:08 <maaku> morcos: I don't think the delay argument stands up for uncontroversial soft-forks
858 2016-02-11T19:27:12 <wumpus> yes, BIP 9 still makes a lot of sense.
859 2016-02-11T19:27:25 <petertodd> morcos: granted, we've got code actually written for what, two of them basically? (csv stuff and segwit stuff)
860 2016-02-11T19:27:52 <jtimon> I don't want to stop anyone from do it, but I'm considering to write my own implementation, resuing some code from both CodeShark's and Rusty's implementation
861 2016-02-11T19:28:01 <morcos> petertodd: or BIP 68 could be viewed spearately from 112/113 actually
862 2016-02-11T19:28:07 <maaku> if CSV is ready next week, we can do ISV. and we can start segwit deployment via bip9 even if CSV deployment isn't finished
863 2016-02-11T19:28:12 <maaku> *ISM
864 2016-02-11T19:28:40 <petertodd> morcos: true, although even then, you *can* do concurrent ISM soft forks
865 2016-02-11T19:29:10 <maaku> My opinion is only that we shouldn't be holding up a valuable soft-fork due only to delay in bip9 development.
866 2016-02-11T19:29:21 <jtimon> maaku ack
867 2016-02-11T19:29:26 <paveljanik> +1
868 2016-02-11T19:29:28 *** jujumax has quit IRC
869 2016-02-11T19:29:29 <gmaxwell> petertodd: only if they're additive.
870 2016-02-11T19:29:46 <jtimon> that doesn't mean we don't want bip9 asap as well though
871 2016-02-11T19:29:49 <gmaxwell> Fortunately I don't think we're actually faced with a hold up question there.
872 2016-02-11T19:29:51 <wumpus> yes I think that's clear, we can use only what is there, if there is no BIP9 implmentation ready then we can't use it
873 2016-02-11T19:29:55 <petertodd> gmaxwell: you mean, only if they don't conflict with each other?
874 2016-02-11T19:30:39 <wumpus> there's no super hurry, but we can't hold up all softforks until BIP9 if there is no clear idea when it will be ready
875 2016-02-11T19:31:13 <gmaxwell> sure.
876 2016-02-11T19:31:17 <sipa> we should have a BIP9 implementation before we can even talk about delaying things for it
877 2016-02-11T19:31:24 <gmaxwell> ^ that.
878 2016-02-11T19:31:26 <wumpus> yeah
879 2016-02-11T19:31:28 <jtimon> I didn't knew that morcos had stopped working on it
880 2016-02-11T19:31:46 <morcos> and we're not concerned about an ISM soft fork activating too early because of miners runnign another implementation?
881 2016-02-11T19:32:00 <maaku> sipa: we should have *one* bip9 implementation ;) problem is we have 2 (soon to be 3)
882 2016-02-11T19:32:10 <morcos> jtimon: never started, but i got too depressed.
883 2016-02-11T19:32:13 <sipa> maaku: i don't mind trying to write one myself :p
884 2016-02-11T19:32:28 <sipa> (don't worry, i have enough other things to do...)
885 2016-02-11T19:32:34 *** oPen_syLar has quit IRC
886 2016-02-11T19:32:35 <wumpus> maaku: it's more about having one that is ready to merge, having 100 half-finished implementations isn't going to help :)
887 2016-02-11T19:32:46 <sipa> s/ready to merge/merged/
888 2016-02-11T19:32:57 *** Gi0 has joined #bitcoin-dev
889 2016-02-11T19:33:13 <petertodd> sipa: heh, I'm gonna have to actualy write my pseudo-versionbits implementation - the one that's about two lines of code :)
890 2016-02-11T19:33:18 <wumpus> what is the main problem with bip9 implementations?
891 2016-02-11T19:33:19 <maaku> morcos: thankfully CSV is non-controversial. if there was significant uptake on a hard fork block.nVersion voting, we can get those miners to patch CSV support in
892 2016-02-11T19:33:22 <wumpus> why do they peter out?
893 2016-02-11T19:33:26 <jtimon> morcos: that's fine (not that you got depressed), I was just pointing out that I found out today
894 2016-02-11T19:33:44 <maaku> (actually scratch that, partially bad logic because they leave the network)
895 2016-02-11T19:33:50 *** jamesob has quit IRC
896 2016-02-11T19:33:58 <sipa> wumpus: CodeShark's was a ton of code that seemed to do a dozen unrelated things, and rusty's never had the caching layer on top to make it efficient
897 2016-02-11T19:34:11 <petertodd> wumpus: frankly, bip9 is stateful and requires a bunch of stuff added to the database, which means there's a whole bunch of things to get right and test, among other issues
898 2016-02-11T19:34:18 <wumpus> sipa: ok thanks
899 2016-02-11T19:34:23 <sipa> petertodd: nope, no database changes needed
900 2016-02-11T19:34:50 <petertodd> sipa: huh? maybe I'm describing it misleadingly, but you have to store flags in the chainstate
901 2016-02-11T19:35:14 <wumpus> right, you have to somehow keep track of the current flags
902 2016-02-11T19:35:40 <petertodd> wumpus: which *is* a relatively big change, and has a lot of possible design space and testing to consider
903 2016-02-11T19:35:45 <sipa> petertodd: my idea was to have a versionbits state that you compute for every block % 2016, compute once, and remain immutable after that
904 2016-02-11T19:35:54 <sipa> petertodd: everything can be efficiently computed from that
905 2016-02-11T19:36:22 <sipa> and recompute at startup
906 2016-02-11T19:36:43 <sipa> anyway, off topic i guess
907 2016-02-11T19:36:44 <petertodd> sipa: ah, so you can get away without actually storing it... clever
908 2016-02-11T19:36:50 <wumpus> does that need 2016 blocks stored?
909 2016-02-11T19:36:52 <maaku> ok, an in-memory std::map database ;)
910 2016-02-11T19:37:06 <jtimon> maaku: aka cache
911 2016-02-11T19:37:12 <sipa> wumpus: no, a map of size (mapBlockIndex.size() / 2016)
912 2016-02-11T19:37:34 <wumpus> ok
913 2016-02-11T19:38:02 <sipa> i'd like to bring up the topic of squash/rebase recommendations (there was some recent discussion about that on the bip68 PR)
914 2016-02-11T19:38:13 <wumpus> #topic squash/rebase recommendations
915 2016-02-11T19:38:29 <morcos> can i suggest that we make some sort of decision as to how to move forward on the soft forks first
916 2016-02-11T19:38:35 <morcos> its ok if that decision is ISM for now
917 2016-02-11T19:38:57 <sipa> morcos: whenever ready, we see what is ready; if BIP9 implementation is ready, use that, otherwise use ISM
918 2016-02-11T19:39:03 <jtimon> I believe decision is "no other choice than ISM until bip9 is merged"
919 2016-02-11T19:39:09 <sdaftuar> we need a volunteer to implement, do we have one?
920 2016-02-11T19:39:11 <morcos> sipa: what do you mean whenever ready
921 2016-02-11T19:39:12 <wumpus> I pretty much thin kthat was what said in the BIP68 topic says it all regarding this topic: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7184#issuecomment-182594295
922 2016-02-11T19:39:13 <sipa> perhaps we'll need to patch ISM to be nVersion & nFlags
923 2016-02-11T19:39:35 *** achow101 has quit IRC
924 2016-02-11T19:39:36 <jtimon> if there's no other volunteer, I think I can do it
925 2016-02-11T19:40:18 <wumpus> <jtimon> I believe decision is "no other choice than ISM until bip9 is merged" ACK
926 2016-02-11T19:41:40 <sipa> ok
927 2016-02-11T19:41:43 <jtimon> squash topic?
928 2016-02-11T19:41:56 <sipa> morcos: do you feel we're done with softforks?
929 2016-02-11T19:42:06 <morcos> ha ha ... yes?
930 2016-02-11T19:42:10 <sipa> ok
931 2016-02-11T19:43:06 <sipa> so, maaku: maybe this wasn't clear from my comment on the morcos' BIP68 PR, but I didn't mean to say "this has to be squashed into a single commit, no matter what" - there were just a list of several fixup and nit addressing commits, and i don't believe those belong in the final merged history
932 2016-02-11T19:43:26 <sipa> but i'd like to hear what your opinion is there
933 2016-02-11T19:43:35 <wumpus> I think that's clear
934 2016-02-11T19:43:58 <morcos> my biggest concern with squashing/rebasing is knowing WHEN to do it. its easier for future reviewers to do it but if other people are still in the midst of reviewing its annoying.
935 2016-02-11T19:44:28 <wumpus> commits have a logical function, you want to tell a story how you changed the code that is easy to review, not necessarily your chronological order of changes
936 2016-02-11T19:44:49 *** damethos has quit IRC
937 2016-02-11T19:44:57 <sipa> we need a local review script, that stores which commit/tree you've reviewed, and later on, shows you the differences compared to what has been reviewed before :)
938 2016-02-11T19:45:02 <morcos> yes!
939 2016-02-11T19:45:02 <wumpus> if you have tons of 'fix issue X' where X was introduced in the same pull, that's not useful
940 2016-02-11T19:45:07 <petertodd> unfortunately there will be cases where "easy to review" is to squash, and cases where "easy to review" is to just add more commits
941 2016-02-11T19:45:10 <petertodd> sipa: +1
942 2016-02-11T19:45:35 <wumpus> sure, and mostly that's up to the developer to make that judgement
943 2016-02-11T19:46:00 *** adnn_ has quit IRC
944 2016-02-11T19:46:02 <maaku> sipa: my position is the same as torvalds regarding squashing and rebasing in git: fine to do up until the point of submitting a PR.
945 2016-02-11T19:46:07 <wumpus> and also depending on what is changed, e.g. if you make a move+change pull it's clear that that's better as two commits
946 2016-02-11T19:46:11 <paveljanik> It can be worth to review the changes in two separate commits (e.g. MOVE-ONLY and a simple change) than in one merged commit (which is perfectly OK for merging). The question is when to move from separate commits and squash.
947 2016-02-11T19:46:23 <paveljanik> exactly
948 2016-02-11T19:46:24 <petertodd> wumpus: yes, and also, that's likely to depend on who is reviewing - more likely for a fresh reviewer to find a squash easier
949 2016-02-11T19:46:26 <jtimon> I think 7184 should have just built on top of its reviewed precessors during development, there's always time to squash later
950 2016-02-11T19:46:42 <sipa> paveljanik: i think it's always valuable to keep moveonly changes and others separate
951 2016-02-11T19:46:47 <maaku> few people if ever read the git history. far more benefit is had by having commit id's not change and use merge commits
952 2016-02-11T19:47:02 <morcos> jtimon: it would would be 30 commits now, half of which were undoing changes in earlier ones
953 2016-02-11T19:47:23 <wumpus> morcos: yes that's awful
954 2016-02-11T19:47:37 <wumpus> at least before merge those should be squashed
955 2016-02-11T19:47:43 <jtimon> and now (or a few weeks ago) you could have squashed, I really don't see the problem
956 2016-02-11T19:47:45 <maaku> rewriting history breaks linkage between what the review record of ACKS say, and what actually gets in the repo
957 2016-02-11T19:48:04 <paveljanik> sipa, for file renames, sure.
958 2016-02-11T19:48:13 <wumpus> maaku: with the commit ids in the replies you can still compare the trees
959 2016-02-11T19:48:18 <sipa> maaku: i recently did an ACK on a tree id rather than a commit, which doesn't break with a squash
960 2016-02-11T19:48:28 *** bityogi has quit IRC
961 2016-02-11T19:48:44 <morcos> maaku: yes i think thats the key. a rebase/squash could maybe be accompied with more detailed information of which ACKS are still valid or something..
962 2016-02-11T19:49:14 <maaku> wumpus: if you have those commits.
963 2016-02-11T19:49:21 <wumpus> maaku: github has them
964 2016-02-11T19:49:22 <sdaftuar> should we all switch to what sipa did going forward, ack the tree id?
965 2016-02-11T19:49:31 <wumpus> nah, I don't know
966 2016-02-11T19:49:34 <petertodd> worth noting that even ACKing with commit ids isn't sufficient for security purposes, so we're still trusting maintainers not to merge malicious stuff, which means trusting them to fairly interpret how squashes interact with previous ACK's is more reasonable
967 2016-02-11T19:49:49 <sipa> maaku: only the people who looked at former state of the PR care about that
968 2016-02-11T19:49:51 <petertodd> sdaftuar: I don't think we need to do that, simply because github saves the information for us in the form of old commits
969 2016-02-11T19:49:54 *** CheckDavid has joined #bitcoin-dev
970 2016-02-11T19:49:54 <wumpus> I don't look forward to teaching everyone that
971 2016-02-11T19:50:01 <jtimon> the only time I reviewed 7184 is through one branch that morcos prepared rebasing 7184 on top of maaku's because that was simpler for me
972 2016-02-11T19:50:06 <maaku> sipa: how do you recover the tree id once there are no commits left in the available branches that create that tree?
973 2016-02-11T19:50:12 <petertodd> wumpus: it's also kinda inconvenient, especially for utACK's done on github
974 2016-02-11T19:50:16 <morcos> in any case, i think what works best for wumpus/sipa shoudl carry some weight here and then to the extent that other people do more heavy lifting on the code base, the process can evolve. but if wumpus is the one who has to decide everytime if the ACK's are valid
975 2016-02-11T19:50:19 <wumpus> petertodd: yes
976 2016-02-11T19:50:20 <morcos> lets do what makes sense for him
977 2016-02-11T19:50:24 <sipa> maaku: i don't understand
978 2016-02-11T19:50:28 <maaku> this process is basically relying on the fact that github acts as a trusted repository of past tree state. i don't like that
979 2016-02-11T19:50:53 <petertodd> maaku: well, as long as we're putting our ACK's on github itself w/o signatures, it's mostly a trusted repo anyway
980 2016-02-11T19:51:04 <wumpus> if you really want to be paranoid then you should also sign your ACKs, as github posts can be edited
981 2016-02-11T19:51:30 * petertodd wonders if anyone is systematically saving + timestamping github state for /bitcoin/bitcoin
982 2016-02-11T19:51:40 <wumpus> feel free do do so, but I'm not going to make it a rule
983 2016-02-11T19:51:45 <wumpus> petertodd: yes, iwilcox is
984 2016-02-11T19:51:56 <maaku> petertodd: the issue isn't so much trust as process and standard practice. it's something that only works with a trusted, central party, which means the same behavior doesn't work so well in other contexts
985 2016-02-11T19:51:57 <paveljanik> looks like btcdrak is taking screenshots ;-)
986 2016-02-11T19:52:06 <wumpus> petertodd: https://github.com/zw/bitcoin-gh-meta
987 2016-02-11T19:52:19 <sipa> wumpus: ha, nice
988 2016-02-11T19:52:50 <petertodd> wumpus: ah cool - should figure out how to timestamp that!
989 2016-02-11T19:52:53 <jtimon> I think the general rule should be "whatever is easier to read and review", but of course sounds like some vague software engineering recommendation "things should be done the right way"...
990 2016-02-11T19:52:58 <maaku> or if github ever decides to clean house and purge old, unreferenced tree states, our historical record would be screwed
991 2016-02-11T19:53:20 <wumpus> it even come with the ghrip script so you can do your own version, if you don't trust him :)
992 2016-02-11T19:53:41 <sipa> maaku: why do you care about the historical state, if you're not one of the people who reviewed it in a non-final state?
993 2016-02-11T19:53:56 <jtimon> I think we're moving away from the topic
994 2016-02-11T19:54:00 <wumpus> any other topic? only few minutes to go
995 2016-02-11T19:54:24 <wumpus> jtimon: yes it sounds vague, but in complex subjects like this it's very hard to give exact procedures that makes sense in every case, if even possible
996 2016-02-11T19:54:26 <paveljanik> what is the status of BIP62 and namely handling High S?
997 2016-02-11T19:54:34 <sipa> paveljanik: retracted
998 2016-02-11T19:54:41 <wumpus> BIP62 is dead
999 2016-02-11T19:54:45 <paveljanik> yes, but any future plans?
1000 2016-02-11T19:54:50 <sipa> paveljanik: segwit
1001 2016-02-11T19:54:51 <paveljanik> for at east High S?
1002 2016-02-11T19:55:05 <paveljanik> ok
1003 2016-02-11T19:55:12 <jtimon> wumpus: yes, I'm afraid vague recommendations and examples is the best you can do with many of these things
1004 2016-02-11T19:55:13 <petertodd> update on segwit prev-block-proofs: I'm deep in the rabbit hole of writing an article/paper/blog-post on fraud proofs, along with what data structures work for them
1005 2016-02-11T19:55:40 <petertodd> AKA, saving a herd of goats :)
1006 2016-02-11T19:55:44 <petertodd> *shaving
1007 2016-02-11T19:55:59 *** Arnes has quit IRC
1008 2016-02-11T19:56:13 <wumpus> great!
1009 2016-02-11T19:56:25 <gmaxwell> paveljanik: for high-S specfically, it still may be soft-forked out at some point-- though with it non-standard I see no reason to rush into it.
1010 2016-02-11T19:56:26 <maaku> petertodd: I would like to work with you on that
1011 2016-02-11T19:56:53 <maaku> not the article, the fraud proofs and prev-block proofs
1012 2016-02-11T19:56:58 <maaku> i've done my own explorations on that
1013 2016-02-11T19:57:08 <petertodd> maaku: cool, be good to compare notes then
1014 2016-02-11T19:57:19 <paveljanik> gmaxwell, people ask for it and I think that non-standardness is not enough for their use cases...
1015 2016-02-11T19:57:20 <sipa> maaku, petertodd: perhaps you should also talk about the commitment structure
1016 2016-02-11T19:57:37 <petertodd> what I'm writing is actually very heavily based on my explorations for fintech clients, e.g. my proofchains work
1017 2016-02-11T19:57:57 <wumpus> #topic fraud proofs
1018 2016-02-11T19:58:02 <gmaxwell> paveljanik: just inhibiting highS is not enough for any usecase I've ever seen expressed.
1019 2016-02-11T19:58:23 <sipa> wumpus: i think that can be discussed outside of the meeting
1020 2016-02-11T19:58:24 <petertodd> article is shaping up to mainly be an ideal redesign of bitcoin from scratch, to serve as example for comparison
1021 2016-02-11T19:58:27 <petertodd> sipa: +1
1022 2016-02-11T19:58:32 <wumpus> sipa: ok, closing the meeting then
1023 2016-02-11T19:58:35 <jtimon> fisnish meeting?
1024 2016-02-11T19:58:35 <wumpus> #endmeeting
1025 2016-02-11T19:58:35 <lightningbot`> Meeting ended Thu Feb 11 19:58:35 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
1026 2016-02-11T19:58:35 <lightningbot`> Minutes: http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-dev/2016/bitcoin-dev.2016-02-11-19.00.html
1027 2016-02-11T19:58:35 <lightningbot`> Minutes (text): http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-dev/2016/bitcoin-dev.2016-02-11-19.00.txt
1028 2016-02-11T19:58:35 <lightningbot`> Log: http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-dev/2016/bitcoin-dev.2016-02-11-19.00.log.html
1029 2016-02-11T19:58:40 *** gmaxwell sets mode: -zm
1030 2016-02-11T19:59:58 <petertodd> in progress article: http://0bin.net/paste/KJW6TagBV-g4yk+9#vPn0wyVabhtiza3qxaNepzz7xSpSX1bi8zfHh1MchwN
1031 2016-02-11T20:00:35 <sipa> maaku: so regarding review, i think that having previous ACKs on former state of a PR only helps people who have acked before quickly re-ACK by seeing what changed since their former ACK
1032 2016-02-11T20:00:48 <sipa> maaku: once merged, the only thing that matters is the final state, and who acked that final state
1033 2016-02-11T20:01:50 <maaku> sipa: so history rewriting has other problems too. it makes merging more difficult if two branches have different versions of the same commit
1034 2016-02-11T20:02:35 <maaku> which can happen, e.g. if a branch is spun up for some deployment that is still in development (like say, what we are both presently doing at work..)
1035 2016-02-11T20:02:36 <morcos> maaku: that argument doesn't seem to apply very much to our development style though, we dont' have longstanding branches
1036 2016-02-11T20:02:52 <maaku> morcos: not all bitcoin development happens in bitcoin/bitcoin on github
1037 2016-02-11T20:03:15 <morcos> but the development process of bitcoin development should be optimized for that
1038 2016-02-11T20:03:48 <maaku> Let's say, as a hypothetical, that some particular sidechain includes #7184 for its CSV support, and deploys that to customers before 7184 is merged by wumpus. Hypothetically.
1039 2016-02-11T20:03:48 <petertodd> morcos: well, we do have longstanding branches - the stable branches - but what we don't have is features big enough to make for long-standing devel branches (in most cases)
1040 2016-02-11T20:04:02 *** NewLiberty_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
1041 2016-02-11T20:04:17 <maaku> Now any history rewriting generates merge conflicts that otherwise would have been sorted out, wasting some particular developer's time. Externalities.
1042 2016-02-11T20:04:17 <petertodd> maaku: careful, sidechain's aren't yet something Bitcoin Core should be changing it's development practices for - that's someone elses problem
1043 2016-02-11T20:04:45 <wumpus> if you have long-standing branches, feel free to not rebase/squash
1044 2016-02-11T20:04:50 <sipa> maaku: i think it would be dangerous for the developer of said sidechain to rely on automatic merging by git anyway
1045 2016-02-11T20:04:51 <maaku> petertodd: surely you are joking?
1046 2016-02-11T20:05:01 <morcos> maaku: fundamentally i just think that the main Bitcoin development process is still evolving so rapidly that that is where we should be concentrating our efforts
1047 2016-02-11T20:05:31 <wumpus> in most cases it's nice for review but we're not trying to force you to do anything...
1048 2016-02-11T20:05:36 <gmaxwell> maaku: keeping other project's commit histories clean is not bitcoin core's problem.
1049 2016-02-11T20:05:42 <petertodd> maaku: not at all - Bitcoin Core is currently separate from the bulk of any sidechain stuff, and politically speaking, we definitely don't want to give the impression blockstream's needs are being prioritised here
1050 2016-02-11T20:05:46 *** laurentmt has quit IRC
1051 2016-02-11T20:05:50 <sipa> agree
1052 2016-02-11T20:05:51 <morcos> maaku: that way of doing things is a huge turn off to those of us who are uninvolved with the private development
1053 2016-02-11T20:06:05 <gmaxwell> I am not supportive of taking any cost in core to accomidate other projects, even friendly ones.
1054 2016-02-11T20:06:32 <morcos> it sucks to not be a part of the cool stuff that is going on, so there should be a significant effort to concentrate as much cool stuff as possible in bitcoin/bitcoin (which i think we do more or less)
1055 2016-02-11T20:06:37 <maaku> gmaxwell: even if the marginal cost is negligible -- what is the marginal cost of not squashing a commit? -- and the externalities significant?
1056 2016-02-11T20:06:39 <gmaxwell> If there are free tweaks, OK great. But that stuff should be argued on its own merits and tie broken by considerations like that.
1057 2016-02-11T20:07:00 <sipa> maaku: IMHO a readable commit history is valuable for reasons of transparency
1058 2016-02-11T20:07:07 <jtimon> maaku I'm afraid you are asking for too much here, nits happen and usually the best way to address them is by rewriting history in the open PR
1059 2016-02-11T20:07:14 *** maaku has left #bitcoin-dev
1060 2016-02-11T20:07:19 <morcos> sure its great for ideas like CT/segwit/etc to be developed off site so to speak, but the developers of such features should be aware that the rest of the community might have input into changing their design after the fact
1061 2016-02-11T20:07:19 <sipa> maaku: i have never been able to understand what is going on in highly branching/merging codebases
1062 2016-02-11T20:07:24 <jtimon> until it's merged, you cannot consider is stable sadly
1063 2016-02-11T20:07:39 *** maaku has joined #bitcoin-dev
1064 2016-02-11T20:07:45 <wumpus> I agree jtimon and sipa
1065 2016-02-11T20:08:00 <maaku> morcos: you may take over BIP 112/113 development
1066 2016-02-11T20:08:02 *** maaku has left #bitcoin-dev
1067 2016-02-11T20:08:06 *** GuruMonk has quit IRC
1068 2016-02-11T20:08:23 <jtimon> which is part of why it was so sad that bip68 is taking so so long to be merged
1069 2016-02-11T20:08:33 <morcos> maaku: i'm not trying to imply that hasn't happened so far, i just saying its a cost of doing research work off site
1070 2016-02-11T20:09:04 <petertodd> jtimon: well, keep in mind that the users of bip68 - things like the lightning network - don't seem to have been impacted, as they're not ready for deployment yet
1071 2016-02-11T20:09:23 <petertodd> jtimon: note how even my own CLTV has had only trivial usage on mainnet so far
1072 2016-02-11T20:09:37 <morcos> ugh, well i wasn't trying to piss him off, but he seemed quite upset that I was giving him feedback on BIP68 after so much work had been put into it previously
1073 2016-02-11T20:09:50 <morcos> and i was just trying to explain that i think you need to expect that to happen
1074 2016-02-11T20:10:59 <morcos> sigh, ok, well obviously what i said did not go over well. can someone else help rectify this situation
1075 2016-02-11T20:11:18 <jtimon> petertodd: I'm just noting that the code for bip68 is not "stable" until merged, not for lightning nor anyone else (that's why they cannot work on top of bitcoin core directly)
1076 2016-02-11T20:11:54 <petertodd> jtimon: that's true, but equally, those same projects give us the confidence that bip68 is stable! chicken and egg
1077 2016-02-11T20:13:37 *** MoALTz has quit IRC
1078 2016-02-11T20:15:33 *** GAit has quit IRC
1079 2016-02-11T20:16:04 <jtimon> petertodd: sure, but users of bip68 are potentially impacted by continued changes in the implementation
1080 2016-02-11T20:16:27 <sipa> well hopefully the result of a long maturing process is that fewer and fewer changes are being made
1081 2016-02-11T20:17:07 <petertodd> sipa: +1
1082 2016-02-11T20:17:07 *** GAit has joined #bitcoin-dev
1083 2016-02-11T20:17:46 <petertodd> jtimon: I'm sure they'll be impacted, but they'll be more likely to be impacted by things that needed to change because their own usage revealed issues
1084 2016-02-11T20:18:56 *** Guest28563 is now known as Lauda
1085 2016-02-11T20:19:43 <jtimon> sipa yes, that was what I expected after 6 months of bip68 being deployed in alpha and 5 months of #6312 being opened reviewed, tested...
1086 2016-02-11T20:20:09 <morcos> sipa: to be honest i have several more comments about the design, but i stopped making them in the interest of just getting the thing merged
1087 2016-02-11T20:20:44 <sipa> the only weird thing about the design i find is that time bit flag in the middle
1088 2016-02-11T20:20:47 <morcos> For instance SequenceLocks now takes a flags argument that just tells it whether the soft fork is active or not, which seems a bit of a weird place to put the logic for the soft fork
1089 2016-02-11T20:21:51 <morcos> But it gets into a much bigger question of what is the right generalization of policy/consensus rules that aren't enforced in the scripts
1090 2016-02-11T20:22:39 <jtimon> IMO we should only have ConsensusVerificationFlags and merge the new ones with the script ones, for example, to not need to to pass two different flag arguments to Consensus::VerifyTx (once it exists), for example
1091 2016-02-11T20:23:07 <morcos> Seems to me a design where you said BIP68().isPolicy() and BIP68().isConsensus() or something like that might be better... yes or what jtimon said with the flags, or something
1092 2016-02-11T20:24:09 <jtimon> I said that long ago, but I was told that "refactors can wait for later"
1093 2016-02-11T20:25:07 <jtimon> and I agreed because I hoped we could have deployed CLTV and bip68/112 together
1094 2016-02-11T20:25:22 *** CodesInChaos has quit IRC
1095 2016-02-11T20:26:20 <morcos> well, i think someone else is going to need to take over BIP 112 now, and i don't think it should be me, otherwise we're never going to have it
1096 2016-02-11T20:26:40 *** CodesInChaos has joined #bitcoin-dev
1097 2016-02-11T20:26:47 <jtimon> it should be just rebase re-review and merge, no?
1098 2016-02-11T20:27:24 *** treehug88 has quit IRC
1099 2016-02-11T20:28:10 <jtimon> isnt'btcdrak doing that?
1100 2016-02-11T20:28:14 *** windsok has quit IRC
1101 2016-02-11T20:29:46 *** GNULinuxGuy has quit IRC
1102 2016-02-11T20:30:56 <morcos> i'd be interested in whether anyone else has an opinion on this comment: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6564#issuecomment-178636856
1103 2016-02-11T20:31:10 *** GNULinuxGuy has joined #bitcoin-dev
1104 2016-02-11T20:31:45 <jtimon> anyway, can we merge bip68 and get it over with? I was waiting for that to rebase #7310...
1105 2016-02-11T20:32:55 <sipa> morcos: i hadn't seen the comment, and thought the same thing while reviewing
1106 2016-02-11T20:35:50 <bsm117532> petertodd: your doc about fraud proofs is making me depressed.
1107 2016-02-11T20:36:19 <morcos> did the unit tests always take this long?
1108 2016-02-11T20:37:39 *** sipa has left #bitcoin-dev
1109 2016-02-11T20:37:55 <wumpus> there's a parameter to run them in verbose mode to see where it spends so much time
1110 2016-02-11T20:41:45 <wumpus> -l test_suite
1111 2016-02-11T20:43:11 <wumpus> ooh --color_output=yes is fancy
1112 2016-02-11T20:44:14 <wumpus> test/addrman_tests.cpp(218): Leaving test case "addrman_tried_collisions"; testing time: 167819us wallet/test/wallet_tests.cpp(68): Leaving test case "coin_selection_tests"; testing time: 3926033us seem to be the worst ones
1113 2016-02-11T20:44:37 <morcos> my units are mks, what's that?
1114 2016-02-11T20:44:50 <wumpus> mks?
1115 2016-02-11T20:44:56 <morcos> what is your total testing time over a minute?
1116 2016-02-11T20:45:29 <morcos> Leaving test case "addrman_tried_collisions"; testing time: 626807mks
1117 2016-02-11T20:46:12 <morcos> argh, i think i compiled with DEBUG_LOCK_ORDER, sorry
1118 2016-02-11T20:46:14 <wumpus> exactly 30 seconds for 186 test cases
1119 2016-02-11T20:47:18 <wumpus> that could explain it, debug mode is much slower
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1125 2016-02-11T21:05:10 <CodeShark> Meh...I missed the meeting
1126 2016-02-11T21:05:20 <CodeShark> Should have been there
1127 2016-02-11T21:05:51 <CodeShark> versionbits is an important issue
1128 2016-02-11T21:06:59 <CodeShark> Is the meeting over over?
1129 2016-02-11T21:07:11 <CodeShark> Or can we still discuss this?
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1175 2016-02-11T23:00:15 <BCB> what is the latest wallet version in core?
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