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210 2016-07-15T20:14:28  <rupy> hi, I'm trying to figure out which developer(s) have been mostly working on the "off-chain" transaction and account + wallet stuff in bitcoind. How could I go about figuring that out?
211 2016-07-15T20:16:11  <pigeons> never heard of that
212 2016-07-15T20:16:16  <pigeons> where did you hear this
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214 2016-07-15T20:21:05  <rupy> 'move' command: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Original_Bitcoin_client/API_calls_list
215 2016-07-15T20:26:34  <luke-jr> rupy: account stuff is deprecated and will likely be removed soon
216 2016-07-15T20:29:37  <rupy> o u c h
217 2016-07-15T20:29:52  <rupy> to bad, but thx for the heads up
218 2016-07-15T20:30:38  <rupy> so it's all payment channel networks from here on?
219 2016-07-15T20:30:54  <pigeons> its not really related
220 2016-07-15T20:31:19  <pigeons> you can still keep your own accounting which likely is more what you need anyway
221 2016-07-15T20:31:20  <rupy> well how can you make off-chain transactions any other way?
222 2016-07-15T20:31:33  <rupy> yes... but then I need to code c++
223 2016-07-15T20:31:34  <pigeons> explain your use case
224 2016-07-15T20:31:54  <rupy> you are right, but I don't trust my c++ skills enough yet...
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226 2016-07-15T20:32:00  <pigeons> no you dont need to code c++, most sites that use bitcoin dont keep balances in a c++ app
227 2016-07-15T20:32:21  <rupy> hm, but how do they interface with bitcoind?
228 2016-07-15T20:32:36  <luke-jr> rupy: sendmany
229 2016-07-15T20:32:53  <luke-jr> walletnotify + listtransactions
230 2016-07-15T20:33:01  <luke-jr> gettransaction maybe more appropriate actually
231 2016-07-15T20:33:18  <pigeons> so same json-rpc api you were using for account feature
232 2016-07-15T20:34:20  <pigeons> but use an external db or spreadsheet instead of interna accounts
233 2016-07-15T20:34:51  <rupy> ok, but that uses accounts OR it yout need to sign the transactions yourself!
234 2016-07-15T20:35:37  <rupy> luke-jr just said accounts are getting removed?!
235 2016-07-15T20:35:38  <pigeons> no you can ask bitcoin to construct and send the transaction
236 2016-07-15T20:35:49  <pigeons> they have been highly discouraged for years
237 2016-07-15T20:36:03  <rupy> exactly, but that is super messy... includes alot of complicated stuff
238 2016-07-15T20:36:32  <pigeons> part of the reason for deprecation is probably beccause its less messy and complicated than accounts, or at least more intuitive
239 2016-07-15T20:36:50  <rupy> but ok then I know what I have to do... learn to bake transactions...
240 2016-07-15T20:36:56  <pigeons> why do you think that?
241 2016-07-15T20:37:31  <luke-jr> rupy: use sendmany with a null string for account name
242 2016-07-15T20:37:46  <rupy> yes well they don't want anybody to really use the accounts because it's super duper hard to get those things to scale and be robust, which is why I wanted to talkt to the developers that made them in the first place...
243 2016-07-15T20:38:03  <luke-jr> pigeons: the deprecation is mostly because it's a messy hack and nobody wants to clean it up
244 2016-07-15T20:38:10  <pigeons> yeah
245 2016-07-15T20:38:16  <rupy> @luke-jr aha ok...
246 2016-07-15T20:38:17  <luke-jr> if someone really wants to fix up accounts, I wouldn't mind that road either
247 2016-07-15T20:38:41  <luke-jr> but accounts are unrelated to payment channels and on/off chain stuff, so I don't think rupy really understands it in the first place
248 2016-07-15T20:38:50  <pigeons> but keeping track of everything externally instead of with accounts doesnt have anything to do with him thinking he needs to construct the transactions manually
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250 2016-07-15T20:39:31  <rupy> I wanted to build a distributed "off-chain" hack using the account system...
251 2016-07-15T20:39:49  <luke-jr> i c
252 2016-07-15T20:40:09  <rupy> but wait sendmany is "on-chain"
253 2016-07-15T20:40:18  <rupy> address:amount
254 2016-07-15T20:40:21  <luke-jr> yes, all the Bitcoin Core wallet is on-chain
255 2016-07-15T20:40:25  <rupy> no
256 2016-07-15T20:40:29  <rupy> not accounts
257 2016-07-15T20:40:34  <rupy> they are "off-chain"
258 2016-07-15T20:40:42  <luke-jr> sure, I mean in terms of dealing with other people
259 2016-07-15T20:40:46  <rupy> ?
260 2016-07-15T20:41:00  <luke-jr> you cannot send bitcoins to another person with the Core wallet, except on-chain
261 2016-07-15T20:41:26  <rupy> or if the other person is using the same bicoind
262 2016-07-15T20:41:33  <rupy> which is what I need
263 2016-07-15T20:41:39  <luke-jr> ok
264 2016-07-15T20:41:42  <pigeons> there isnt much effective difference to movintg something via accounts and changing a row in your local database
265 2016-07-15T20:41:45  <luke-jr> just do accounts in a SQL db then
266 2016-07-15T20:41:58  <luke-jr> bitcoind will just hold your backing bitcoins
267 2016-07-15T20:42:09  <rupy> but tracking who has what was done with accounts...
268 2016-07-15T20:42:17  <luke-jr> yes, do that in your SQL db
269 2016-07-15T20:42:19  <pigeons> track it in a db
270 2016-07-15T20:42:51  <rupy> I don't have a SQL db, and I never will
271 2016-07-15T20:42:56  <luke-jr> CREATE TABLE accounting (INT from_user, INT to_user, INT amount, VARCHAR memo)
272 2016-07-15T20:42:58  <luke-jr> …
273 2016-07-15T20:43:09  <rupy> I have a file distibuted JSON db that can't index numbers
274 2016-07-15T20:43:34  <luke-jr> so you refuse to use things that scale?
275 2016-07-15T20:43:53  <rupy> thats why I needed bitcoind (berkeley) to sort that out
276 2016-07-15T20:44:14  <luke-jr> you can use berkley yourself, but it's not a very good idea.
277 2016-07-15T20:44:32  <rupy> I have a distributed async cluster, you can't use SQL sync dbs with that
278 2016-07-15T20:45:01  <luke-jr> …
279 2016-07-15T20:45:08  <rupy> I just had high hopes to get in touch with whoever was responsible for the accounts code in bitcoind
280 2016-07-15T20:45:20  <rupy> and talk with them about this...
281 2016-07-15T20:45:46  <rupy> http://github.com/tinspin/rupy
282 2016-07-15T20:46:50  <rupy> @luke-jr do you know who implemented the accounts in bitcoind?
283 2016-07-15T20:47:02  <pigeons> bitcoin's creator
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285 2016-07-15T20:47:13  <rupy> holy shit! ok
286 2016-07-15T20:47:43  <rupy> do you know if anyone has used them for anything?
287 2016-07-15T20:47:51  <rupy> are they stable as they exist now?
288 2016-07-15T20:48:11  <pigeons> i know people who have used them and gotten bit by not understanding them
289 2016-07-15T20:48:38  <rupy> yeah they are very dangerous... no security... very bad for privacy etc.
290 2016-07-15T20:48:49  <rupy> but how stable/scalable are they?
291 2016-07-15T20:48:54  <pigeons> not the no security
292 2016-07-15T20:49:30  <rupy> well using accounts you can actually have debt inside the bitcoind
293 2016-07-15T20:49:39  <pigeons> yep
294 2016-07-15T20:49:48  <rupy> someone can spend the bitcoinds funds if you are not careful...
295 2016-07-15T20:50:10  <rupy> so I know all that... but I need to know if and how they will be removed
296 2016-07-15T20:51:14  <rupy> who decides that kind of thing?
297 2016-07-15T20:52:38  <luke-jr> rupy: I don't know of any major problems in accounts if you use them correctly, besides scaling problems that probably cannot be fixed without something like SQL
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299 2016-07-15T20:53:07  <luke-jr> but they will probably be removed because nobody maintains it
300 2016-07-15T20:53:10  <rupy> you seem to like SQL...
301 2016-07-15T20:53:17  <luke-jr> that's what SQL is good at…
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303 2016-07-15T20:53:40  <luke-jr> right tool for the right job
304 2016-07-15T20:54:10  <rupy> clearly you have not used SQL in a distibuted cluster...
305 2016-07-15T20:54:43  <pigeons> i have. what tool do you reccomend instead?
306 2016-07-15T20:54:54  <rupy> http://github.com/tinspin/rupy
307 2016-07-15T20:58:03  <luke-jr> fine, so use that instead if it works just as good as SQL.
308 2016-07-15T20:58:11  <luke-jr> point is bitcoind does not.
309 2016-07-15T20:59:21  <pigeons> you can use the same interface you would use to store in a sql db to track in whatever alternative external system you want
310 2016-07-15T20:59:21  <rupy> so you mean the wallet file as it grows berkeley will start to crap out on me...
311 2016-07-15T21:00:03  <rupy> no I cant distribute a SQL db with my async system because all SQL db's have sync sonnections
312 2016-07-15T21:00:22  <pigeons> i didnt say a sql db, i said use anythying
313 2016-07-15T21:00:34  <pigeons> sql is justthe obvious example
314 2016-07-15T21:00:47  <rupy> ok, I get it...
315 2016-07-15T21:01:05  <pigeons> then use bitcoin json rpc api to send or whatever
316 2016-07-15T21:01:31  <rupy> guess i'll start with the internal bitcoind stuff and migrate out eventually... good to know I'll have to get the migration solved before I launch thats all...
317 2016-07-15T21:01:54  <luke-jr> rupy: every time you do anything with bitcoind, it will scan over your entire accounting/moves history
318 2016-07-15T21:02:12  <rupy> would be nice to be able to plan without having to worry about dev pulling the accounts plug at any release
319 2016-07-15T21:02:23  <luke-jr> so plan without bitcoind accounts
320 2016-07-15T21:02:27  <luke-jr> it's not rocket science
321 2016-07-15T21:02:28  <rupy> but I guess the account code is so entangled it will take a while
322 2016-07-15T21:02:59  <rupy> luke: ok can you explain that a bit deeper?
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324 2016-07-15T21:05:06  <rupy> that sounds like a bug...
325 2016-07-15T21:05:44  <rupy> guess thats why everone builds their own bitcoin implementation...
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327 2016-07-15T21:06:45  <rupy> I'll just have to prototype it by spamming the bitcoind with accounts and moves... just to see how it scales then...
328 2016-07-15T21:07:08  <moli> rupy, bitcoin doesn't know anything about "accounts"
329 2016-07-15T21:07:23  <rupy> bitcoind does though
330 2016-07-15T21:07:27  <moli> nope
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333 2016-07-15T21:07:53  <rupy> 'move' command here: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Original_Bitcoin_client/API_calls_list
334 2016-07-15T21:08:11  <pigeons> he's talking about the "accounts" feature
335 2016-07-15T21:08:52  <pigeons> its just no one will support it and it will likely be removed, yet he prefers it
336 2016-07-15T21:09:55  <rupy> *if it works and scales*
337 2016-07-15T21:10:12  <pigeons> luke-jr explained it doesnt scale
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339 2016-07-15T21:10:25  <rupy> he didn't explain why though
340 2016-07-15T21:10:42  <rupy> scan over the entire history is just completely bonkers
341 2016-07-15T21:10:57  <rupy> if so bitcoind can't be used for anything
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343 2016-07-15T21:12:22  <luke-jr> rupy: just don't use accounts and it's okay
344 2016-07-15T21:13:10  <rupy> :) that's not a good enough argument... can you explain how bitcoind scans over the complete history at every command?
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347 2016-07-15T21:16:05  <moli> rupy, https://github.com/bitcoin-dot-org/bitcoin.org/issues/1287
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349 2016-07-15T21:17:26  <rupy> thx, I'll send charles who uses accounts too a mail...
350 2016-07-15T21:20:04  <moli> rupy, what i understand is.. for instance, if you set up two accounts with two addresses for Bob and Mary, and you think you're going to use Bob's money to pay for his bill, bitcoin doesn't know it's "bob's account" and spends Mary's money
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353 2016-07-15T21:26:30  <rupy> I know we covered that... IRC is really a bad place... we should use slack
354 2016-07-15T21:27:15  <rupy> I'll prototype the accounts scalability... and then we'll know, since luke is just scaremongering
355 2016-07-15T21:29:24  <pigeons> he isn't scaremongering. very close to all of the bitcoin developers have been saying not to use accounts for several years.
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357 2016-07-15T21:29:50  <pigeons> i dont know what that has to do with irc or slack, i guess you're being sarcastic
358 2016-07-15T21:30:38  <rupy> on slack you can read comments that where posted before you login and thus avoid repeating
359 2016-07-15T21:31:08  <moli> pigeons, i guess he's a troll
360 2016-07-15T21:31:16  <moli> go trolling on slack for all we care
361 2016-07-15T21:31:20  <rupy> but if they don't give a good reason, that is scaremongering...
362 2016-07-15T21:31:58  <pigeons> its not scaremongering. its open source you can look at how it works
363 2016-07-15T21:32:05  <moli> i just gave you a good reason
364 2016-07-15T21:33:24  <rupy> yep I'll do that...
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