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114 2016-08-01T13:05:11 <rafalcpp> hmm I builded bitcoin using gitian (v 0.12.0) and the resulting bitcoin tgz in fact differs compared to what other asserted... wumpus
115 2016-08-01T13:06:07 <rafalcpp> all binaries inside do differ, e.g.:
116 2016-08-01T13:06:23 <rafalcpp> bitcoin-0.12.0-downloaded/bin/bitcoind: ELF 64-bit LSB shared object, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked, interpreter /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2, for GNU/Linux 2.6.24, BuildID[sha1]=3e44ab72fc71e510209554ae5d2e4674812c97f1, stripped
117 2016-08-01T13:06:25 <rafalcpp> bitcoin-0.12.0-mylxc/bin/bitcoind: ELF 64-bit LSB shared object, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked, interpreter /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2, for GNU/Linux 2.6.24, BuildID[sha1]=a69a81a08bc338f5f0fa183b04cf17aade34cc25, stripped
118 2016-08-01T13:08:55 <rafalcpp> the bitcoin is in version v0.12.0, git log -1 in ~/gitian-builder/inputs/bitcoin is 188ca9c3, so is tag v0.12.0
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128 2016-08-01T13:48:20 <rafalcpp> the difference is largely related to address of gmtime_r@plt+...
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130 2016-08-01T13:49:12 <rafalcpp> comparing asm (objdump -d) between my gitian build and binary from bitcoin.org
131 2016-08-01T13:49:22 <rafalcpp> - 6d98f: e8 cc 59 4f 00 callq 563360 <gmtime_r@plt+0x5008c0>
132 2016-08-01T13:49:24 <rafalcpp> - 6d994: 48 8d 3d 95 62 4f 00 lea 0x4f6295(%rip),%rdi # 563c30 <gmtime_r@plt+0x501190>
133 2016-08-01T13:49:25 <rafalcpp> + 6d98f: e8 6c 0c 52 00 callq 58e600 <gmtime_r@plt+0x52bb60>
134 2016-08-01T13:49:27 <rafalcpp> + 6d994: 48 8d 3d 35 15 52 00 lea 0x521535(%rip),%rdi # 58eed0 <gmtime_r@plt+0x52c430>
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138 2016-08-01T14:00:08 <rafalcpp> maybe the library providing gmtime_r has now gmtime_r() at othe addresses, meaning that it's ABI changed
139 2016-08-01T14:02:49 <wumpus> yes now you say I remember there were some changes to gcc during the release cycle for a recent release, I think that was for either 0.12.0 or 0.12.1
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143 2016-08-01T14:04:09 <wumpus> for a certain rcX we couldn't get the results to match, turned out part of the people built with one gcc package and one part with another, was bad timing from the ubuntu side
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158 2016-08-01T14:05:04 <rafalcpp> wumpus: changes to gcc, or to libc?
159 2016-08-01T14:05:22 <wumpus> in our case it was gcc
160 2016-08-01T14:05:40 <rafalcpp> but that was other problem, or this one?
161 2016-08-01T14:05:50 <rafalcpp> was it also causing other addresses of funcdtions like gmtime_r?
162 2016-08-01T14:05:56 <wumpus> it was a similar problem where small parts of the code were moved to other places
163 2016-08-01T14:06:09 <wumpus> and optimized differently
164 2016-08-01T14:06:15 <wumpus> I don't remember anything about a specific function
165 2016-08-01T14:06:16 <rafalcpp> well that is another issue, that other gcc version compiles in other way... yeah or optimize
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167 2016-08-01T14:06:35 <rafalcpp> but what about this library version thing, it seems more obvious
168 2016-08-01T14:06:53 <rafalcpp> I think each time any used library changes, it will be not possible to reproduce. no one else reported this yet?
169 2016-08-01T14:07:17 <wumpus> well libc is one of the only libraries not built from source
170 2016-08-01T14:07:28 <wumpus> in any case, yes that can happen
171 2016-08-01T14:07:48 <wumpus> if you really want to reproduce an old build you'd have to somehow restore the packages mentioned in the assert
172 2016-08-01T14:07:53 <rafalcpp> so maybe gitian build process should force specific version of libc (for function addresses), and of compiler (to avoid different optimizations)?
173 2016-08-01T14:08:17 <wumpus> as of now gitian works well enough for building releases with N people where the output is the same, being able to build old releases would be nice, but is not the primary goal
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175 2016-08-01T14:08:19 <rafalcpp> (btw, good job ubuntu changing ABIs and compiler version in midle of stable release system ;)
176 2016-08-01T14:09:00 <rafalcpp> wumpus: which version should now build the same for everyone as of today, the 0.12.1 of course?
177 2016-08-01T14:09:10 <wumpus> 0.13.0rcX at least
178 2016-08-01T14:09:13 <rafalcpp> ok
179 2016-08-01T14:09:44 <wumpus> well *for a certain release* you may want to fix a certain libc/gcc version
180 2016-08-01T14:09:47 <rafalcpp> wumpus: patch to have gitian builder force libc, gcc (and maybe other) lib versions would be probably accepted?
181 2016-08-01T14:09:57 <wumpus> this is what effectively happens by writing the package versions into the assert
182 2016-08-01T14:10:16 <wumpus> if you later on build with different packages than in the assert, the release may be different
183 2016-08-01T14:11:17 <wumpus> the problem with using a fixed release of anything is that you also miss security updated, or have to explicitly check them, that gives more work. We already have to do this for all packages in depends
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186 2016-08-01T14:12:16 <wumpus> e.g. there was a libc change at some point because DNS lookup was vulnerable
187 2016-08-01T14:13:31 <wumpus> to be honest the ubuntu thing is a hack - I think the next step for gitian is to use a deterministic OS as well
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189 2016-08-01T14:14:04 <wumpus> or at least a toolchain that can be entirely deterministically built
190 2016-08-01T14:14:05 <wumpus> debian is working on this
191 2016-08-01T14:14:12 <wumpus> but I'm not sure how far they are
192 2016-08-01T14:14:52 <wumpus> e.g. if you can build all the packages which were used to build a certain bitcoin release, you can always reproduce old builds
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196 2016-08-01T14:16:34 <wumpus> but it's good that someone shows interest in this, I think it's best to discuss this with cfields if you want to make improvements here
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210 2016-08-01T14:21:43 <rafalcpp> wumpus: but if you want to assert an old build, you want to in fact assert it as-it-was, including the old library including the library's bug
211 2016-08-01T14:22:09 <wumpus> yes,I understand - for old releases you'd ideally want to be able to rebuild the old OS state
212 2016-08-01T14:22:16 <rafalcpp> that's only way to make sure if you "turst no one" :) you're then checking historical honesty of other builders, not making a version to use
213 2016-08-01T14:22:22 <rafalcpp> yea
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215 2016-08-01T14:23:16 <rafalcpp> wumpus: why bitcoin is build on Ubuntu btw, wouldn't Debian be better choice as it changes less often?
216 2016-08-01T14:23:20 <wumpus> I think that's possible if historical packages are still available somewhere
217 2016-08-01T14:23:51 <wumpus> rafalcpp: historical reasons
218 2016-08-01T14:23:56 <helo> how does one verify that the OS state is indeed identical?
219 2016-08-01T14:24:13 <wumpus> "packages built on ubuntu tend to work on many linux distros"
220 2016-08-01T14:24:26 <wumpus> helo: the assert lists all of the installed package versions
221 2016-08-01T14:24:45 <rafalcpp> helo: you can tell apt-get to get packages in given version
222 2016-08-01T14:24:51 <wumpus> helo: including sha256sums IIRC - so if you can go back to exactly having those packages installed, the state should be the same
223 2016-08-01T14:25:02 <helo> ah, nice
224 2016-08-01T14:25:54 <wumpus> e.g. see under "trusty-amd64" https://github.com/bitcoin-core/gitian.sigs/blob/master/0.13.0rc2-linux/laanwj/bitcoin-linux-0.13-build.assert
225 2016-08-01T14:25:57 <rafalcpp> are we also checksumming all downloaded .debs, or *only* checking if they are signed by distro? (the later would allow a bit elaborated ploy to send troyaned, but signed, debs to some people)
226 2016-08-01T14:26:54 <wumpus> they're checksummed, but there is nothing to check those checksums against
227 2016-08-01T14:27:03 <wumpus> it's just for reporting
228 2016-08-01T14:27:03 <rafalcpp> ah stupid question, yes we do - e8d54ec2e6fd538d231f90986ef7b76761644b8bab23e068c90950899b520f02 libc-bin_2.19-0ubuntu6.7_amd64.deb
229 2016-08-01T14:28:02 <rafalcpp> wumpus: we could in gitian file write the expected checksums
230 2016-08-01T14:28:07 <wumpus> the gitian builder installs and upgrades an ubuntu image, if ubuntu is compromised they could inject a fake gcc/g++ compiler that buildsi n a backdoor
231 2016-08-01T14:28:20 <wumpus> and then? how would you actually verify those packages?
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233 2016-08-01T14:29:07 <rafalcpp> you could tell apt-get what is the expected checksum, if this isn't yet an option then you could wget yourself, checksum, and then dpkg -i
234 2016-08-01T14:29:11 <wumpus> at the least they're reported, so deviations can be detected, but I don't think anything more is possible unless someone were to audit all the packages
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236 2016-08-01T14:29:46 <wumpus> yea.. how to get that 'expected checksum'? how to know what package is clean?
237 2016-08-01T14:30:02 <wumpus> as said, going to a fully deterministically built OS may help, and is a future plan
238 2016-08-01T14:30:04 <rafalcpp> wumpus: eventually entire debial also should become deterministic buildable
239 2016-08-01T14:30:13 <wumpus> but without that, this would not add any actual security
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241 2016-08-01T14:30:24 <wumpus> we try to avoid security theater with the limited resources we have :)
242 2016-08-01T14:30:37 <rafalcpp> https://wiki.debian.org/ReproducibleBuilds has a nice progress graph
243 2016-08-01T14:31:06 <rafalcpp> wumpus: ok. I guess the option to rebuild historical builds by forcing version is all improvement that could make sense now.
244 2016-08-01T14:31:16 <wumpus> yes
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249 2016-08-01T14:35:02 <wumpus> another thing that has been discussed is to reduce the size of the building base OS - ubuntu has a lot of overhead, packages that are unncecessary for building
250 2016-08-01T14:35:18 <wumpus> starting with a debian minimal install would likely help there
251 2016-08-01T14:36:24 <wumpus> if the base OS is small, one could simply archive the packages used to build each release, making it easier to find them for rebuilding
252 2016-08-01T14:37:09 <rafalcpp> is there something in Ubuntu that is needed, or could it as well be debian now?
253 2016-08-01T14:38:12 <wumpus> no, could switch to another OS for 0.14
254 2016-08-01T14:38:18 <pigeons> and debian does have deterministic package building, i beleive based on bitcoin's gitian work (i think they credited tor though)
255 2016-08-01T14:38:52 <wumpus> gitian can in principle handle debian already IIRC
256 2016-08-01T14:39:20 <pigeons> not much info but https://wiki.debian.org/ReproducibleBuilds and for kernel https://wiki.debian.org/SameKernel
257 2016-08-01T14:39:21 <wumpus> pigeons: yes, see the link rafalcpp gives a few lines back :)
258 2016-08-01T14:39:27 <rafalcpp> :}
259 2016-08-01T14:39:30 <pigeons> lol oops sorry ok
260 2016-08-01T14:40:11 <pigeons> i started reading at "another thing". getting more coffee now :)
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289 2016-08-01T17:28:08 <`mist> hiya, if a wallet is not encrypted. Will it return a value for "locked"?
290 2016-08-01T17:28:38 <`mist> and what i mean by that is if i run getinfo() on a unencrypted wallet, will the output be differnt from a getinfo() from an encrypted one?
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292 2016-08-01T17:34:25 <arubi> `mist, a locked wallet has a "unlocked_until" value returned from getinfo rpc. not sure if that's the getinfo() you mean
293 2016-08-01T17:36:01 <`mist> yeah but that only tells me if its locked or unlocked. Not if its encrypted or not
294 2016-08-01T17:36:42 <arubi> well, s/locked/encrypted
295 2016-08-01T17:37:23 <`mist> ok so an encrypted wallet will always have a unlocked_until value
296 2016-08-01T17:37:34 <`mist> whether it the value is 10000 or 0. Its encrypted
297 2016-08-01T17:37:44 <`mist> but if its not encrypted, it won't have this value at all?
298 2016-08-01T17:37:47 <arubi> if it's 0, it's locked
299 2016-08-01T17:37:56 <arubi> if it's more, then that's how many seconds until it locks
300 2016-08-01T17:38:07 <`mist> and if it not encrypted at all?
301 2016-08-01T17:38:14 <arubi> if it's not encrypted, it doesn't return a locked_until value at all, right
302 2016-08-01T17:38:23 <`mist> sweet, perfect
303 2016-08-01T17:38:24 <`mist> thanks =)
304 2016-08-01T17:38:33 <arubi> cheers
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