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39 2016-08-19T02:35:26 <dcousens> if BIP70 isn't available, is there any thoughts on an extension to BIP21 to allow for multiple outputs? QR codes obviously have their limits, but I'm thinking you could probably do a simple GET to a URL provided.
40 2016-08-19T02:38:11 <dcousens> It just seems I've often had projects that require multiple outputs in a transaction, and the only solution was to use BIP70, which requires a whole stack of various tech compared to how simple the project may have been up to that point
41 2016-08-19T02:39:37 <dcousens> Probably relevant as separate BIP instead of an extension, but, point remains, any thoughts?
42 2016-08-19T02:40:46 <dcousens> Its a "replacement" for BIP70, as much as it is simply an advanced payment request, I have no need for a 2-way protocol in most situations
43 2016-08-19T02:41:05 <dcousens> Its not a "replacement"***
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152 2016-08-19T13:34:50 <rafalcpp> is bitcoin built (also) on offline computer (airgapped) by anyone?
153 2016-08-19T13:34:58 <rafalcpp> *are bitcoin builds
154 2016-08-19T13:35:14 <spudowiar> rafalcpp: well, how would that work?
155 2016-08-19T13:35:24 <rafalcpp> whoops. Are bitcoin builds being created (in Gitian) and then gpg signed, on offline computer - by anyone yet
156 2016-08-19T13:35:32 <spudowiar> rafalcpp: you'd have to pull the files from an online computer, it could be compromised then
157 2016-08-19T13:35:46 <spudowiar> rafalcpp: there's no way of getting uncompromised files to an offline computer
158 2016-08-19T13:35:56 <spudowiar> rafalcpp: so it's a pointless endeavour
159 2016-08-19T13:36:01 <rafalcpp> spudowiar: copy all files needed to build on computer B. Run build there. Sign it there. Move via some media (e.g. CD rom) the files to A. Upload to internet from A
160 2016-08-19T13:36:18 <spudowiar> How do you get files to Computer B?
161 2016-08-19T13:36:48 <rafalcpp> spudowiar: on a CD, from a computer that can be compromised, it doesn't matter because you can check signatures of the files that end up on B before using them
162 2016-08-19T13:37:28 <spudowiar> rafalcpp: well, now you're relying on signatures from a third party
163 2016-08-19T13:38:32 <rafalcpp> spudowiar: bitcoin sources are signed by bitcoin devels of course
164 2016-08-19T13:38:49 <rafalcpp> yeah I assume that computer B, and it's operating system is not compromised. Have to assume something
165 2016-08-19T13:38:58 <spudowiar> ofc
166 2016-08-19T13:39:17 <spudowiar> What I'd do personally, is go to a random computer shop to check signatures, etc. then verify AGAIN on the airgapped computer (with files from my own computer)
167 2016-08-19T13:39:40 <spudowiar> Provides me with enough assurance :)
168 2016-08-19T13:39:53 <rafalcpp> so if only 1) computer B was not pre-hacked on hardware level 2) computer B system installation was fine (e.g. Debian/Ubuntu is not backdoored, and the I can meet in person ftpmaster or ask 100 people what is his pubkey)
169 2016-08-19T13:40:07 <spudowiar> yeh
170 2016-08-19T13:40:12 <rafalcpp> then there is no way to compromise it at all. (besides like kidnapping the builder - but that is why we have many builders)
171 2016-08-19T13:40:22 <spudowiar> hehe
172 2016-08-19T13:40:28 <rafalcpp> allright. So, does anyone do that already? E.g. any of people signing bitcoin releases now?
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174 2016-08-19T13:41:55 <rafalcpp> maybe it would be worthwhile to do so?
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176 2016-08-19T13:43:21 <rafalcpp> wumpus: any thoughts on it? Now I'm getting to like Gitian, so I think such build (by some of builders) could be an improvement
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178 2016-08-19T13:49:22 <moli> rafalcpp, every release is signed
179 2016-08-19T13:50:01 <rafalcpp> moli: of course. I asked about are they being signed on air-gapped computer
180 2016-08-19T13:55:42 <pigeons> how air-gapped is air-gapped? remove the sound cards? anyway you reproduce whatever they built exactly with gitian on your own machine
181 2016-08-19T13:56:28 <rafalcpp> pigeons: yes, remove all such hardware. Indeed it's enough to sign the checksum. Reason for it would be only to confirm that you get the identical checksum
182 2016-08-19T13:56:59 <pigeons> you built it byte for byte exact copy with gitian
183 2016-08-19T13:57:02 <jonasschnelli> What would air-gapped build solve?
184 2016-08-19T13:57:06 <jonasschnelli> *builds
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186 2016-08-19T13:57:30 <pigeons> nothing
187 2016-08-19T13:58:01 <rafalcpp> it would solve attempt to online hack all the ~10 people who confirm builds now
188 2016-08-19T13:58:31 <jonasschnelli> The current build concept with gitian would require that an attacker compromise either gitian (will be very likely detected by the devs) or every devs/gitian-builders system
189 2016-08-19T13:58:34 <rafalcpp> (how ever small possibiliy of doing that is)
190 2016-08-19T13:58:49 <rafalcpp> jonasschnelli: yeap, every of the 10 signers
191 2016-08-19T13:58:50 <jonasschnelli> rafalcpp: no. It would not solve that.
192 2016-08-19T13:59:09 <pigeons> more people build with gitian than the 10 signers and get the same result
193 2016-08-19T13:59:54 <pigeons> the point is that anybody can
194 2016-08-19T14:00:11 <moli> the problem more likely is if bitcoin.org or github gets compromised, but even more likely is users computers are already compromised
195 2016-08-19T14:01:33 <rafalcpp> pigeons: hmm ok, if someone really cares (runs exchange for example) then he anyway builds from sources, and there it is question of how secure is the source code git tag. (plus smugging in hostile change can be hard... though happened with altcoin at least once already)
196 2016-08-19T14:02:23 <jonasschnelli> There is also a verify-git-commits script
197 2016-08-19T14:02:42 <jonasschnelli> All git commits are GPG signed (form a certain point back in time)
198 2016-08-19T14:02:51 <rafalcpp> jonasschnelli: I assume compromising 1 developer source code GPG allows to add a last hostile commit and tag it
199 2016-08-19T14:03:18 <rafalcpp> for the source code route, question would be instead: is that signature placed on offline computer?
200 2016-08-19T14:03:38 <jonasschnelli> sure. but It needs to end up in the main git repository...
201 2016-08-19T14:03:54 <jonasschnelli> A push will be detected immediately.
202 2016-08-19T14:03:59 <rafalcpp> jonasschnelli: yeah that is super cool tool, we do same in our projects now (and Gitian too, great invention thanks to Bitcoin too :)
203 2016-08-19T14:04:39 <rafalcpp> jonasschnelli: I assume github is compromisable to begin with, and that end user relies on crypto-signatures, not just on some hosting
204 2016-08-19T14:05:05 <jonasschnelli> Yes. But git is already distributed..
205 2016-08-19T14:05:19 <jonasschnelli> A git tag refers to a hash
206 2016-08-19T14:05:57 <jonasschnelli> compromising the source code is probably way more difficult then compromising the binaries
207 2016-08-19T14:06:05 <jonasschnelli> but here is this....
208 2016-08-19T14:07:03 <jonasschnelli> if an attacker manages, to steal Breadwallets or Android Walltes App Store credentials, the attacker could upload a malicious binary which sends-home all private keys.
209 2016-08-19T14:07:34 <rafalcpp> jonasschnelli: use (attack) case would be: target an exchange or rich user, who builds from source. As a cost you need to impersonate github https or compromise their servers first (did happened once), and to compromise over-internet computer of developer who GPG signs tags on releases usually
210 2016-08-19T14:07:52 <rafalcpp> use this dev's key to commit -S hostile change, and tag -s it.
211 2016-08-19T14:08:02 <rafalcpp> deliver that from compromised github
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213 2016-08-19T14:08:53 <rafalcpp> jonasschnelli: yeah. So this scenario makes sense, right? Perhaps something worth it to steal say 1 million in btc
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215 2016-08-19T14:10:00 <rafalcpp> so I think if the git tag would be placed on airgapped computer (some inconvenience for this developers), then the cost of attack would increase to require some physical compromise of them
216 2016-08-19T14:11:39 <rafalcpp> that is correct right? If yes, then I wonder if such approach would be worth the extra effort (if it's not done that way already)
217 2016-08-19T14:11:57 <pigeons> ignoring the fact that this will be noticed, a physical compromise isn't necessarily more expensive as you presume
218 2016-08-19T14:14:01 <rafalcpp> pigeons: you mean the attack would be noticed right? (because the compromised version could be sent to only targeted user, exactly to avoid other users realizing the code is bad and rising alarm)
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220 2016-08-19T14:14:43 <pigeons> i thought you said they compromised github and not a trageted user?
221 2016-08-19T14:15:12 * waxwing mentions WoT and runs away
222 2016-08-19T14:15:15 <pigeons> look, of course there are risks, but i dont agree that this fixes any of them
223 2016-08-19T14:15:28 <rafalcpp> pigeons: yes but in such position they could compromise github to server on version of software to certain user, and other to everyone else. This is one of main reasons for deterministic builds for me
224 2016-08-19T14:15:38 <rafalcpp> *to server one version
225 2016-08-19T14:16:11 <rafalcpp> waxwing: WoT of gnupg? This is same gnupg pubkey as always, WoT check on it is the same
226 2016-08-19T14:17:32 <pigeons> now we've compromised all of the gitian builders who sign, all of the builders who dont sign but wuld notice, github, etc
227 2016-08-19T14:21:41 <rafalcpp> pigeons: well not all at once. Either github + 1 developer (laanwj@gmail.com now), or website + all gitian signers
228 2016-08-19T14:25:38 <rafalcpp> then... anyone here thinks changing requirement of that from "we need to hack their computer online" into "we need to physically attack their signing computer" would be a good step?
229 2016-08-19T14:26:29 <rafalcpp> maybe it's just me. But I think even for governmnts it is much harder to physically attack people (and do so without rising alarm as some developer dissapears suddenly)
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232 2016-08-19T14:35:09 <waxwing> i think there is more defence in distribution than in moving from logic to physical layer. The latter is not nothing, but attacks on physical distribution layer are very real, and where they are happen they are horribly hard to detect.
233 2016-08-19T14:36:20 <waxwing> Worst case, N developers use physical devices, but all of a type that has been backdoored. And nobody knows. I think it's more about the N.
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274 2016-08-19T16:45:15 <Ylbam> Do we know who is behing the interesting http://bcoin.io/ project?
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276 2016-08-19T16:48:21 <Ylbam> Copyright owned by Fedor Indutny who seems to be an engineer working at PayPal
277 2016-08-19T16:48:59 <Ylbam> Looks like he is a Node.js core team member too.
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279 2016-08-19T16:53:50 <jonasschnelli> Ylbam: yes. Its him: https://twitter.com/_chjj
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281 2016-08-19T16:56:38 <Ylbam> @jonasschnelli: thanx, looks like an amazing project.
282 2016-08-19T16:56:57 * jonasschnelli Seems like a clever guy... already implemented Bip151.
283 2016-08-19T16:57:18 <jonasschnelli> grml... wasn't supposed as a /me message
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