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178 2016-10-20T15:18:56  <roconnor> Is there some reason why the script commitment isn't also segregated in segwit?
179 2016-10-20T15:19:38  <arubi> you mean for witness scripts nested in p2sh?
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182 2016-10-20T15:19:55  <arubi> (because bare witness scripts do have everything in the witness)
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184 2016-10-20T15:25:18  <roconnor> I was thinking of the P2WSH case.  We could even segregate the 32-byte- scriptPubKey.
185 2016-10-20T15:25:34  <arubi> that is in the witness
186 2016-10-20T15:26:39  <roconnor> I mean segregate the 32-byte hash of the scriptPubKey, which would shrink the offical transaction size by a further 32 bytes.
187 2016-10-20T15:27:00  <roconnor> But now I realise that segwit is compatable with the existing addressing systems.
188 2016-10-20T15:27:15  <arubi> that's only segwit scripts nested in p2sh
189 2016-10-20T15:27:42  <roconnor> Hmm, I'm not being very clear.
190 2016-10-20T15:27:49  <arubi> roconnor, the only case were you'd see the 32 byte hash in the non segregated scriptsig is when redeeming a p2sh(p2wsh\p2wpkh)
191 2016-10-20T15:28:22  <arubi> it's there because of p2sh which is being redeemed (the 32 byte hash was paid to by a hash160 of itself -- p2sh)
192 2016-10-20T15:28:51  <arubi> so it's pushed to scriptsig, old nodes are happy that it matches, and there it stays.  redeem a bare p2wsh and the redeemscript is already segregated
193 2016-10-20T15:29:15  <arubi> and you don't need to push the 32 byte hash anywhere, just like you don't need to push the hash160 of p2sh
194 2016-10-20T15:30:45  <roconnor> So in the P2WSH example, the scriptPubKey in a transaction is 0 <32-byte-hash>
195 2016-10-20T15:31:14  <roconnor> But we could, in principle, make it just OP_1
196 2016-10-20T15:31:22  <roconnor> and hide the 32-byte-hash in the coinbase.
197 2016-10-20T15:32:28  <arubi> you mean put the scriptpubkey, from the paying transaction in the previous block's coinbase?
198 2016-10-20T15:33:07  <roconnor> put the scriptpubkey from the paying transction into the coinbase of the block it is commited into.
199 2016-10-20T15:34:11  <arubi> so: ... [tx0|block0] ... -> [tx1|block1]  ,  that would be tx0's scriptpubkey and block0's coinbase, am I getting it correctly now?
200 2016-10-20T15:35:51  <roconnor> I don't quite follow your notation.
201 2016-10-20T15:36:22  <arubi> tx0 is paying to p2wsh, has a '0 0x20 ...' scriptpubkey in its output
202 2016-10-20T15:36:28  <arubi> and is mined in block0
203 2016-10-20T15:36:51  <arubi> so, that scriptpubkey will be committed to in block0's coinbase?
204 2016-10-20T15:37:54  <roconnor> tx0 would have a 'OP_1' scriptPubKey.  The 0x20... would instead be committed block0's coinbase.
205 2016-10-20T15:38:10  <arubi> right, sorry.  okay
206 2016-10-20T15:38:52  <arubi> well, it's interesting..  I think it might break current signing of mixed "pay to segwit" and "pay to non segwit" scripts tough
207 2016-10-20T15:39:06  <roconnor> yes.
208 2016-10-20T15:39:48  <roconnor> and the more I think about it, the more issues I see.  The TXID doesn't commit the ouptuts, so doesn't make a useful id for accounting purposes.
209 2016-10-20T15:41:12  <roconnor> I think something could be built to support a further transaction boost around this, but maybe it is too complicated.
210 2016-10-20T15:42:02  <arubi> I never considered "aggregating" outputs like that really.. cool idea.
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212 2016-10-20T15:44:00  <roconnor> Yeah,  it's not quite as nice as I originally imagined, but maybe something to think about.
213 2016-10-20T15:46:41  <roconnor> I was thinking about the maximum tx rate we could get if we removed both scriptSigs (segwit) and scriptPubKeys (this idea).
214 2016-10-20T15:47:43  <roconnor> Now that I'm talking abou it, we could probably also combine all transactions into a single transaction per block.
215 2016-10-20T15:48:03  <arubi> yea, that's already pretty easy with segwit if folks play along with each other
216 2016-10-20T15:48:26  <arubi> simply sign everything as anyonecanpay|single and you can combine all inputs and outputs to one transaction
217 2016-10-20T15:48:28  <roconnor> And again, store the data on how to actually carve up inputs and ouptuts into the original transactions inside the coinbase.
218 2016-10-20T15:49:16  <roconnor> arubi: once you have empty scriptSigs and only an OP_1 for the scriptPubKey, you don't even need to sign things as anyonecanpay|single to combine inputs and outputs.
219 2016-10-20T15:49:46  <roconnor> you just mash everything together and describe how to restore it inside the coinbase.
220 2016-10-20T15:50:27  <roconnor> as I trivial example you could mash all the inputs, and the store the original transactions in a merkle tree in the coinbase.
221 2016-10-20T15:50:40  <roconnor> but you'd probably want to do something a bit smarter.
222 2016-10-20T15:53:06  <arubi> I see what you mean about not having to sign in a special way.  how large do you think the data would be for the reconstruction of the original transactions?
223 2016-10-20T15:54:13  <arubi> or is it something that a node can figure out for themselves locally from the coinbase only?
224 2016-10-20T15:54:42  <arubi> (locally once they get the mined block)
225 2016-10-20T15:55:32  <roconnor> to reconstruct the orginal transactions, I'm thinking you specify the inputs as a range from the mashed inputs and the outputs as a range from the mashed outputs.
226 2016-10-20T15:55:48  <roconnor> So you need 2 ranges, let's say we can specify a range in 4 bytes.
227 2016-10-20T15:55:58  <roconnor> So 8 bytes per original transaction.
228 2016-10-20T15:56:29  <roconnor> Of course this would be all hashed up into one 32-byte number for "offical" accounting purposes in the coinbase.
229 2016-10-20T15:57:31  <roconnor> But as far as bandwidth, we'd need those 8 bytes per transaction.
230 2016-10-20T15:58:44  <roconnor> Here I'm assuming there are less than 2^16 inputs and outputs per block.
231 2016-10-20T15:59:00  <roconnor> I haven't counted the maximum number of inputs and outputs per block there really are.
232 2016-10-20T16:01:33  <arubi> I haven't gotten the chance to really dive into range proofs yet unfortunately, so I can't validate or contradict what you suggested, the most I've now with segwit is getting close to 10k (outputs at least), so not close but not so far either..  are the 8 bytes supposed to be a unique ID for a transaction while it's still unconfirmed?
233 2016-10-20T16:01:58  <arubi> most I've seen (re. outputs/inputs #s)
234 2016-10-20T16:03:46  <arubi> or was it 10k transactions?  it was only a couple days ago..  too bad I can't remember
235 2016-10-20T16:04:31  <roconnor> I don't mean range proof in the cryptographic sense.
236 2016-10-20T16:04:47  <roconnor> Actually, the data needed is even simpler.
237 2016-10-20T16:05:04  <roconnor> Think about the original set of transactions.
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240 2016-10-20T16:05:47  <roconnor> we combine them by just concatenating all the inputs and all the outputs in sequence.
241 2016-10-20T16:06:14  <roconnor> into one large transaction (this doesn't work if one transaction spends an output made in the same block, but lets ignore that for now).
242 2016-10-20T16:06:52  <roconnor> To recover the original dividing lines we just need a list of the indexs of the inputs and outputs where they were merged.
243 2016-10-20T16:07:31  <roconnor> That is about two indexes per transaction, on for the input side and one for the output side.
244 2016-10-20T16:07:50  <roconnor> if each index fits in 2 bytes, that's only 4 bytes per transaction.
245 2016-10-20T16:08:50  <roconnor> arubi: 10k transactions is probably right.  Though you can probably make a super large transaction with one output and even more inputs.
246 2016-10-20T16:09:07  <roconnor> so maybe you could have a transaction with 20k inputs and one output?
247 2016-10-20T16:09:24  <roconnor> so maybe we need a few more bytes in some cases.
248 2016-10-20T16:09:25  <arubi> I think that's just over the sigops limit, but maybe :)
249 2016-10-20T16:10:12  <roconnor> meh, people can make transaction without using OP_CHECKSIG.  I mean, they will lose their money, but it can be done.
250 2016-10-20T16:10:52  <arubi> oh sure, I guess they could.  a miner might claim it all as fee though
251 2016-10-20T16:10:59  <arubi> (not that it matters here)
252 2016-10-20T16:11:09  <arubi> I see about the indexes, thanks for explaining it
253 2016-10-20T16:11:10  <roconnor> right, I'm just trying to compute some upper bounds here.
254 2016-10-20T16:11:30  <roconnor> arubi: thanks.  It'd be easier to explain with a whiteboard.
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256 2016-10-20T16:12:24  <roconnor> anyhow, I see now that there are many problems with this idea.
257 2016-10-20T16:12:56  <arubi> heh, being in a uni setting again will be nice.  the idea is very
258 2016-10-20T16:13:15  <arubi> * very original, really would like to think about it more
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332 2016-10-20T22:58:13  <xmlnewbi> im trying to test multi-sig on testnet, I need to importAddress the final address to watch. On mainnet it works. but on testnet its saying invalid address. Even though Im making a multi-sig testnet address with 3 hd keys with all the right version bits
333 2016-10-20T22:58:28  <xmlnewbi> is there a flag or something I need to do to test multi-sig testnet?
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