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39 2016-12-08T03:24:45 <TommyBoy> I've been running bitcoin core for a few months (0.12.0 without down time) and it seems to put a pretty insane transaction fee
40 2016-12-08T03:24:48 <TommyBoy> Here's the transaction: https://blockchain.info/tx/5a7622902e1e1bdea20e4728a6e2dc210e15636ca5fbe81ab489881531f6882a
41 2016-12-08T03:24:54 <TommyBoy> That's about 10x what estimatefee says it should use
42 2016-12-08T03:25:07 <TommyBoy> estimatefee says it should only use 0.00091372 per kb
43 2016-12-08T03:25:17 <TommyBoy> The transaction is 0.372 kb, so it should use: 0.00033990384 in fees, but it's using 0.00235315
44 2016-12-08T03:26:44 <achow101> TommyBoy: IIRC estimatefee has been improved in newer versions. You should upgrade to 0.13.1
45 2016-12-08T03:27:00 <TommyBoy> The problem isn't that estimatefee is wrong, the problem is it's not even using that
46 2016-12-08T03:27:14 <TommyBoy> It used almost x10 what estimatefee suggested
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48 2016-12-08T03:27:48 <achow101> txid of transaction in question?
49 2016-12-08T03:27:55 <TommyBoy> Although, I'll update to 0.13.1 now. But it's quite concerning regardless
50 2016-12-08T03:28:05 <TommyBoy> I linked to it above
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52 2016-12-08T03:28:24 <TommyBoy> 5a7622902e1e1bdea20e4728a6e2dc210e15636ca5fbe81ab489881531f6882a
53 2016-12-08T03:28:43 <achow101> are you sure that when you sent it was using the dynamic fees?
54 2016-12-08T03:28:52 <TommyBoy> Yeah
55 2016-12-08T03:30:11 <TommyBoy> I just made another send, without resetting bitcoin. "5213fcfe8e331cce51c6dd6742723c3267fabe5c788723f000f0c6543ace1cae"
56 2016-12-08T03:30:14 <TommyBoy> That one is correct fee
57 2016-12-08T03:30:38 <achow101> that's really weird
58 2016-12-08T03:31:13 <TommyBoy> I just checked my last 5 transactions (all made within the last hour) and they all have normal fee rates
59 2016-12-08T03:31:22 <TommyBoy> The only one that doesn't is 5a7622902e1e1bdea20e4728a6e2dc210e15636ca5fbe81ab489881531f6882a
60 2016-12-08T03:31:31 <TommyBoy> Where that fee rate is 10x what it should be
61 2016-12-08T03:32:26 <achow101> perhaps you hit some super strange edge case, or you accidentally clicked something that set the fee rate to be different.
62 2016-12-08T03:32:35 <TommyBoy> No, I used the command line interface
63 2016-12-08T03:32:45 <TommyBoy> I don't even have the gui installed
64 2016-12-08T03:32:53 <achow101> which command did you use?
65 2016-12-08T03:33:42 <TommyBoy> let me grab it from my bash history exactly
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67 2016-12-08T03:34:10 <TommyBoy> bitcoin-cli sendtoaddress 1DeMTAhAoNH2eu4wn9G7vepmXPS8VqUSpj 50
68 2016-12-08T03:35:38 <achow101> can you post your debug.log somewhere and link to it? there may be some clues in there as to what may have happened
69 2016-12-08T03:36:58 <TommyBoy> https://gist.github.com/anonymous/5bdbbc6410832cc865303e5b8e21c38d
70 2016-12-08T03:38:24 <achow101> is that it? There should defintely be more, particularly stuff involving the high fee tx
71 2016-12-08T03:39:01 <TommyBoy> That's complete
72 2016-12-08T03:39:29 <TommyBoy> I didn't skip any messages in that timeframe
73 2016-12-08T03:40:07 <achow101> huh. it should be longer, but if it isn't, oh well. unfortunately I have no idea what happened, so I can't really help you
74 2016-12-08T03:40:40 <TommyBoy> well i might kill it now, and upgrade to 0.13.1
75 2016-12-08T03:40:46 <TommyBoy> unless there's something you want me to do before i do that
76 2016-12-08T03:41:25 <achow101> nah, there isn't anything to do before upgrading
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78 2016-12-08T03:43:01 <TommyBoy> Ok, well running 0.13.1 now
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133 2016-12-08T09:44:29 <BTCgame> Hello guys
134 2016-12-08T09:48:33 <BTCgame> Is there anyone who using blockchain API? I added ability to check final balance from address, but not sure how to check is the transaction was confirmed or no
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243 2016-12-08T20:39:48 <bsm117532> Given that Bloom filters don't provide any practical privacy benefit, is there any reason I can't set nHashFuncs=1 to search for a specific transaction using BIP37?
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251 2016-12-08T21:12:27 <belcher> bsm117532 you can also send the txid, outpoint or scriptPubKey directly to the other node and not even bother with a filter
252 2016-12-08T21:12:54 <belcher> iv been working on something similar lately and just did that
253 2016-12-08T21:13:29 <belcher> filteradd is the p2p command
254 2016-12-08T21:18:25 <adiabat> bsm117532: the bloom filter provides a *little* privacy
255 2016-12-08T21:19:42 <adiabat> slightly more obscure than just directly sending the address or txid. Though yeah in practice it doesn't help much
256 2016-12-08T21:23:33 <bsm117532> I'm more concerned about taking load off the servers... belcher that's a good idea...
257 2016-12-08T21:24:10 <bsm117532> I'm also thinking, slightly longer term, about an update to BIP37 that will solve some of its problems...
258 2016-12-08T21:25:19 <adiabat> The whole bloom filter thing really needs to be fixed...
259 2016-12-08T21:25:30 <adiabat> there was some discussion of how to do that earlier this year
260 2016-12-08T21:25:34 <bsm117532> belcher but a getdata will only return the txn, not a Merkle proof for it.
261 2016-12-08T21:25:52 <adiabat> basically have the fullnode create a filter for the whole block, then return that
262 2016-12-08T21:26:11 <adiabat> and the lite node can match that filter with their set of addresses / utxos
263 2016-12-08T21:26:20 <adiabat> and if there's a match, download the whole block
264 2016-12-08T21:26:28 <bsm117532> adiabat: yeah. Also use Cuckoo filters...
265 2016-12-08T21:27:00 <adiabat> yeah... the nicest thing about that is you could soft-fork in some kind of commitment to that filter, hash in the coinbase op_return or something
266 2016-12-08T21:27:15 <adiabat> then fullnodes can't lie about not seeing transactions
267 2016-12-08T21:27:28 <bsm117532> Hmmm. It's about time I started keeping a list of BIP37 improvement ideas...
268 2016-12-08T21:29:33 <bsm117532> Is there any reason to check the filter against *every* data element in scripts?
269 2016-12-08T21:30:15 <adiabat> output scripts?
270 2016-12-08T21:31:00 <adiabat> Not really, if you somehow get a p2sh that uses the same hash as p2pkh you can figure that out once you've downloaded it. But that should ~never happen
271 2016-12-08T21:31:22 <adiabat> so efficiency-wise it's fine to only add the 20 byte hash to the filter
272 2016-12-08T21:31:33 <bsm117532> BIP37 checks every element of the scriptPubKey
273 2016-12-08T21:32:21 <adiabat> yeah, it does seem kind of odd. Maybe have it only check elements larger than 8 bytes or something
274 2016-12-08T21:33:31 <adiabat> from the lite node side, adding only the 20 byte hashes to the filter construction works fine; that's what my software does
275 2016-12-08T21:34:31 <bsm117532> What's your software?
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278 2016-12-08T21:52:19 <bsm117532> I invite you all to add to/comment on this: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ByouxU_Jwqv360L3VVZwgJN4L7kK8DpdClCFwDRQyr0/edit#
279 2016-12-08T21:52:25 <bsm117532> (BIP37 Improvement Ideas)
280 2016-12-08T21:52:34 <bsm117532> ping chjj roasbeef
281 2016-12-08T21:53:21 <arubi> bsm117532, why not a gist instead of the google doc? might attract more editors
282 2016-12-08T21:53:41 <sipa> bsm117532: utxo commitments don't help, unless they are address-based filters (which have ven higher overhead)
283 2016-12-08T21:53:47 <sipa> what you need are filter commitments
284 2016-12-08T21:54:12 <sipa> each block commits to a number of bloom/cuckoo/... filters of various sizes and partitions
285 2016-12-08T21:55:12 <bsm117532> sipa: Two different use cases: "Is an output still unspent" vs. "Did an output send me funds". UTXO set commitments provide the former, block commitments to a block filter provide the latter.
286 2016-12-08T21:56:00 <bsm117532> arubi: I've enabled anonymous commenting on the google doc. I'm not so sure about gists with multiple editors...
287 2016-12-08T21:56:15 <bsm117532> Just open the google doc in an incognito window if you like.
288 2016-12-08T21:58:04 <arubi> gists should act like git repos on github afaik. I'll go over it on goog docs, no worries
289 2016-12-08T21:58:29 <arubi> (not that I have anything to add, just curious as always :) )
290 2016-12-08T21:59:45 <bsm117532> Google docs essentially auto-merge. I wouldn't want to have 40 forks of my doc on gist and have to figure out how to merge them... Anyway this is just brainstorming.
291 2016-12-08T22:01:08 <chjj> bsm117532: i'm not sure about cuckoo filters. cuckoo filters are huge when serialized. probably not as bandwidth efficient. that's the basic idea though. we were leaning towards some kind of committed filter for each block that includes outpoints and address hashes.
292 2016-12-08T22:02:05 <chjj> bsm117532: segwit blocks would be no problem if the spv client can request the full block, since they could then verify the witness commitment hash.
293 2016-12-08T22:02:32 <bsm117532> chjj: At fixed false positive rate (which is all anyone cares about) both cuckoo and bloom filters are log(n) in the number of elements, up to a constant factor. But the extra parameter in bloom filters makes this non-obvious.
294 2016-12-08T22:05:24 <chjj> bsm117532: i see. i'm probably not in a position to argue on that, since i've only briefly played around with cuckoo filters. they definitely struck me as larger when i was testing.
295 2016-12-08T22:05:58 <bsm117532> I was investigating the two like a year ago. I'll dig through my notes...
296 2016-12-08T22:08:14 <sipa> bsm117532: bip37 does not in any way answer the question whether an output is still unspent
297 2016-12-08T22:08:21 <sipa> sure, a utxo commitment would help for that
298 2016-12-08T22:08:36 <sipa> but it's completrly orthogonal to the question of replacing bip37
299 2016-12-08T22:08:57 <bsm117532> I know. ;-) It's a question I want light clients to be able to answer, and affects the question of what new things should we commit to in the block header?
300 2016-12-08T22:09:35 <sipa> heh, there are many things we could commit to if the functionality we want to provide is unlimited
301 2016-12-08T22:12:13 <sipa> if we'd commit to FIBRE FEC blocks you could create a trustless fibre network (where you can relay packets without being able to verify them)
302 2016-12-08T22:12:17 <chjj> i think this is a good idea even without the committed filters. putting the load on the spv client rather than the full node is a better design. i see bip37 as a dos vector for full nodes atm.
303 2016-12-08T22:12:37 <sipa> if we'd commit to spent positions of inouts, we could create double spending fraud proofs
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305 2016-12-08T22:12:41 <chjj> parsing the whole block, creating the merkle branch, testing each pushdata, etc. is nuts.
306 2016-12-08T22:13:06 <sipa> if we'd commit to a merkle sumtree of amounts, you could have fraud proofs for fees and amounts
307 2016-12-08T22:13:25 <bsm117532> I knew I could depend on you for da brainstorm sipa ;-)
308 2016-12-08T22:13:35 <sipa> i didn't come up with any of this
309 2016-12-08T22:14:09 <sipa> the input positions idea is by rusty
310 2016-12-08T22:14:16 <sipa> the sumtree by gmaxwell
311 2016-12-08T22:14:23 <sipa> the fec thing by BlueMatt
312 2016-12-08T22:15:13 <sipa> filter commitmemts by someone on the ML
313 2016-12-08T22:16:13 <bsm117532> I'll do some googling and add them to my list. I'm interested in anything which can improve light client security.
314 2016-12-08T22:16:18 <sipa> roasbeef: hey, i'm next door
315 2016-12-08T22:19:27 <bsm117532> chjj: I agree...I'm also interested in ways to distribute such commitments, even if they are not a consensus rule, and not even necessarily communicated on-chain.
316 2016-12-08T22:19:45 <chjj> sipa: you're at DG? give roasbeef a hard time for me, for missing our hacking session.
317 2016-12-08T22:20:24 <sipa> chjj: no, at the burger place next to it
318 2016-12-08T22:20:53 <chjj> sipa: ah
319 2016-12-08T22:22:09 <chjj> bsm117532: yeah, doesn't necessarily have to be in the header. though, it would be nice. :)
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321 2016-12-08T22:24:27 <sipa> bsm117532: well utxo commitments have the downsides of forcing us to forever stick to a (normative) utxo model
322 2016-12-08T22:24:49 <sipa> and fec commitments force us to stick to a particular fec algorithm forever
323 2016-12-08T22:25:42 <sipa> gmaxwell recently had the idea of having commitments with as rule 1) if it is present, it must be valid 2) they're only required to be present for a limited amount of time (say, 2 years)
324 2016-12-08T22:27:24 <bsm117532> I like that. Though it requires code to be kept essentially forever to evaluate old-style commitments.
325 2016-12-08T22:27:36 <abpa> what does a "proof of proof of work" mean exactly?
326 2016-12-08T22:30:45 <bsm117532> abpa: I give you a list of the block headers for the [smallest hash value H, smallest hash value less than 2*H with larger height than the previous element, smallest hash value less than 4*H with larger height than the previous element, ..., most recent block header]
327 2016-12-08T22:31:09 <abpa> is it referencing this paper: http://fc16.ifca.ai/bitcoin/papers/KLS16.pdf ?
328 2016-12-08T22:31:12 <bsm117532> this list is logarithmic in height
329 2016-12-08T22:31:27 <bsm117532> Yes. plus some refinements by amiller
330 2016-12-08T22:31:48 <bsm117532> Don't know if he published his paper yet...
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