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113 2017-05-22T09:38:08  <conman> am I missing something about this alleged silbert agreement? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1928093.0
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151 2017-05-22T12:53:40  <execute_> in a transaction's vout, how come the scriptpubkey has an array of addresses? Can there be more than 1 address?
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209 2017-05-22T17:09:46  <arubi> anybody knows what petertodd means here: https://mobile.twitter.com/petertoddbtc/status/866512081591447552 ?
210 2017-05-22T17:10:34  <arubi> or is it just a comment about the wtxid root being in the header itself?
211 2017-05-22T17:12:30  <arubi> or is it a continuation from the previous tweet?  twitter is hard :)
212 2017-05-22T17:16:40  <abpa> It means you could asicboost and hide it
213 2017-05-22T17:17:02  <abpa> Simple asicboost is granding the version number in the block header
214 2017-05-22T17:17:11  <arubi> right, but that's overt
215 2017-05-22T17:17:51  <arubi> yes I pretty much know how asicboost works.  just thought that this tweet had something to do with the segwit+hf thing suggested by SDL
216 2017-05-22T17:18:18  <Diablo-D3> wtf is asicboost?
217 2017-05-22T17:18:30  <abpa> arubi it makes it covert
218 2017-05-22T17:18:56  <arubi> Diablo-D3, some way to re-use work and lower power consumption in asics
219 2017-05-22T17:19:00  <arubi> abpa, what does?
220 2017-05-22T17:19:16  <abpa> making the version bits into a nonce does
221 2017-05-22T17:19:57  <Diablo-D3> arubi: so its what I did in diablominer?
222 2017-05-22T17:20:08  <arubi> right, I had trouble following the tweets timeline.  thanks
223 2017-05-22T17:20:27  <arubi> Diablo-D3, I don't know :),  there's a pretty detailed paper that shows one way
224 2017-05-22T17:20:47  <Diablo-D3> I did pre-calc of the first few steps
225 2017-05-22T17:20:59  <Diablo-D3> saved about 12% of the time iirc
226 2017-05-22T17:21:05  <arubi> and there's another way to do it covertly by using some bits from the coinbase and some re-ordering of the transactions in the block
227 2017-05-22T17:21:40  <arubi> here it's finding collisions of in the second sha256 block of the header
228 2017-05-22T17:22:29  <arubi> the merkle root is in the header but 32 bits are in the second block
229 2017-05-22T17:22:48  <Diablo-D3> that seems to be more complex than what I did
230 2017-05-22T17:22:54  <arubi> so if you find say 4 merkle roots that have the same 32 last bits, then you can re-use that second block
231 2017-05-22T17:23:04  <Diablo-D3> its trying to reduce work over further time by massaging the input
232 2017-05-22T17:23:13  <Diablo-D3> clever, but it can't be _that_ time saving
233 2017-05-22T17:23:21  <arubi> about 20% power saving
234 2017-05-22T17:23:30  <Diablo-D3> 20% power saving, or 20% work saving
235 2017-05-22T17:23:32  <Diablo-D3> they arent the same thing
236 2017-05-22T17:23:34  <arubi> power
237 2017-05-22T17:23:38  <arubi> same h/ps
238 2017-05-22T17:23:48  <Diablo-D3> yeah, that just tells me something became inefficient.
239 2017-05-22T17:24:07  <Diablo-D3> when I did round precalc on the cpu, power usage went up, but so did hps
240 2017-05-22T17:24:30  <arubi> this asicboost thing is pretty big, are you just hearing about it now?
241 2017-05-22T17:24:42  <Diablo-D3> I don't really pay attention to mining anymore
242 2017-05-22T17:24:57  <arubi> it's caused quite a shitstorm
243 2017-05-22T17:25:03  <arubi> the covert use of it that is
244 2017-05-22T17:25:09  <Diablo-D3> but 20% power saving but not 20% work saving sounds like they fucked up
245 2017-05-22T17:25:13  <Diablo-D3> its an incomplete solution
246 2017-05-22T17:25:36  <Diablo-D3> due to the nature of asics, you can't just increase clock rate to compensate
247 2017-05-22T17:25:47  <arubi> nobody's trying
248 2017-05-22T17:25:53  <arubi> just add more asics :)
249 2017-05-22T17:25:59  <Diablo-D3> yeah, you can do that
250 2017-05-22T17:26:05  <Diablo-D3> but the way I view it
251 2017-05-22T17:26:17  <Diablo-D3> 20% power saving, but not 20% increase in hashes means somebody is idle for 20%.
252 2017-05-22T17:26:48  <arubi> well, you just don't do the work for the second block of the header
253 2017-05-22T17:27:20  <arubi> it's also all done by software external to the asics
254 2017-05-22T17:27:39  <arubi> finding the collisions that is
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257 2017-05-22T17:43:06  <simul> the reason you don't pay attention to mining any more is probably, indirectly, because of asicboost
258 2017-05-22T17:45:23  <arubi> run bip148, let's fix this :)
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274 2017-05-22T19:10:55  <Chris_Stewart_5> arubi: You aren't concerned about the risk of chain splits / minority chain for BIP148?
275 2017-05-22T19:11:20  <arubi> not if I'm running bip148 Chris_Stewart_5
276 2017-05-22T19:11:41  <abpa> The only think you have to fear is fear itself
277 2017-05-22T19:11:43  <Chris_Stewart_5> hah - well are you willing to be on the BIP148 chain indefinitely even if the economic majority is not?
278 2017-05-22T19:12:01  <arubi> yep, at least it isn't broken by mining cartels
279 2017-05-22T19:12:07  <arubi> it's time to face the truth here
280 2017-05-22T19:12:18  <Chris_Stewart_5> re: mining cartels. No arguments there
281 2017-05-22T19:12:42  <Chris_Stewart_5> I really want segwit to activate, but i don't think i've been convinced that BIP148 is a safe way to do it :-(
282 2017-05-22T19:12:58  <arubi> it's the safest way for anyone who has money really
283 2017-05-22T19:13:03  <arubi> there is 0 chance of reorg
284 2017-05-22T19:13:19  <arubi> this is pure soft fork, like p2sh or whatever
285 2017-05-22T19:13:26  <Chris_Stewart_5> 0 chance that the BIP148 chain gets reorg onto the non BIP148 chain you mean
286 2017-05-22T19:13:38  <arubi> yes, like 0 chance of p2sh reverting
287 2017-05-22T19:13:42  <arubi> (at the time even)
288 2017-05-22T19:14:25  <Chris_Stewart_5> I think I would need to see some more economic players (merchants, exchanges) supporting BIP148 before I support it
289 2017-05-22T19:14:48  <abpa> They follow users
290 2017-05-22T19:14:54  <arubi> right, that would be great if happened beforehand
291 2017-05-22T19:15:03  <Chris_Stewart_5> Some people keep talking about better ways to UASF than BIP148
292 2017-05-22T19:15:08  <arubi> users have to run the nodes, this is a soft fork
293 2017-05-22T19:15:16  <arubi> maybe, but that's too far offf
294 2017-05-22T19:15:19  <arubi> off*
295 2017-05-22T19:15:27  <arubi> we need to take advantage of segwit nodes already on the network
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297 2017-05-22T19:15:29  <Chris_Stewart_5> Have you read BIP8/BIP149?
298 2017-05-22T19:15:47  <arubi> bip149 once, so not so clear.  but I get the idea
299 2017-05-22T19:16:07  <arubi> I initially was against 148 and really for some flag day like bip149
300 2017-05-22T19:16:17  <Chris_Stewart_5> Yes, but don't segwit nodes need to be upgraded to support the activation of BIP148?
301 2017-05-22T19:16:24  <arubi> but I changed my mind, 0.13.1+ nodes are too valuable
302 2017-05-22T19:16:32  <arubi> no
303 2017-05-22T19:16:42  <arubi> they wait for segwit until nov 15th
304 2017-05-22T19:16:49  <arubi> and 148 activates on aug 1st
305 2017-05-22T19:17:05  <Chris_Stewart_5> Yes, but in the BIP9 activation cycle won't it fail because MASF doesn't have 95 %
306 2017-05-22T19:17:21  <Chris_Stewart_5> so those old 0.13.1 nodes won't realize segwit is active?
307 2017-05-22T19:17:23  <arubi> yes, if 148 nodes aren't numerous
308 2017-05-22T19:17:37  <Chris_Stewart_5> so yeah, we need nodes to upgrade regardless :/
309 2017-05-22T19:17:41  <arubi> no no
310 2017-05-22T19:17:54  <arubi> 148 just has a set date to activate before bip9 runs out
311 2017-05-22T19:18:05  <arubi> it's a stricter rule, a soft fork
312 2017-05-22T19:18:20  <arubi> of course, if it's just 10 nodes, nobody cares and the chain goes on
313 2017-05-22T19:18:36  <arubi> but if it's 30%, 50% of the nodes (we can do it..), then miners have to comply
314 2017-05-22T19:19:02  <Chris_Stewart_5> it bothers me that BIP148 is very easy to sybil attack as well. How do you quantify how many *economic* nodes there are actually being used -- not just nodes spun up on EC2
315 2017-05-22T19:19:11  <arubi> you don't
316 2017-05-22T19:19:18  <arubi> just like any other soft fork pre- bip9
317 2017-05-22T19:19:43  <arubi> back then it was obvious everyone would upgrade
318 2017-05-22T19:20:01  <arubi> right now we see very fast adoption rate for new clients (I look at my own node's peers)
319 2017-05-22T19:20:37  <Chris_Stewart_5> ^ that isn't a reliable way to measure
320 2017-05-22T19:20:49  <arubi> you never measured nodes
321 2017-05-22T19:21:15  <arubi> bip9 measures hashrate, bip8 assumes adoption is fine over some year
322 2017-05-22T19:21:23  <arubi> some time* (a year?)
323 2017-05-22T19:22:01  <arubi> comon, it's clear we have significant active community, and that a lot do run core and upgrade
324 2017-05-22T19:22:17  <abpa> Bitcoin has a social layer of consensus that is the answer to some problems
325 2017-05-22T19:22:28  <Chris_Stewart_5> Are you worried that this will be used in the future for less popular upgrades?
326 2017-05-22T19:22:45  <arubi> people have to run the code for such things
327 2017-05-22T19:23:00  <arubi> miners tried to pull extblocks without us noticing
328 2017-05-22T19:23:18  <arubi> soft forks can always happen with miners, there's no way around it
329 2017-05-22T19:23:19  <abpa> It's not a worry what other people want to do
330 2017-05-22T19:23:41  <abpa> You can't stop people from going on their own forks and that is just a fact of life
331 2017-05-22T19:23:54  <Chris_Stewart_5> also, BIP148/BIP8 streamlines the deployment of a hard fork doesn't it? I think your argument applies to soft forks/hard forks
332 2017-05-22T19:24:08  <abpa> These are for soft forks
333 2017-05-22T19:24:26  <arubi> I only looked at the soft fork aspect, didn't catch a hard fork reference in those
334 2017-05-22T19:24:33  <Chris_Stewart_5> I think it could be used for both. If it is a flag day and we have overwhelming consensus on it
335 2017-05-22T19:24:50  <Chris_Stewart_5> and I'm not sure if that is a good thing
336 2017-05-22T19:25:01  <abpa> It's fine
337 2017-05-22T19:25:19  <Chris_Stewart_5> I like soft forks because it restricts the set of existing rules, but I think flag days could be used for hard forks as well which can be dangerous
338 2017-05-22T19:25:20  <arubi> seems to be perfectly in spirit of bitcoin to me
339 2017-05-22T19:25:43  <arubi> again, people would have to run the hard fork code
340 2017-05-22T19:25:45  <abpa> Hard forks with flag days seem fine to me too
341 2017-05-22T19:25:52  <abpa> You can't stop it anyway
342 2017-05-22T19:26:07  <arubi> oh you mean if anybody else wants to fork?
343 2017-05-22T19:26:13  <Chris_Stewart_5> arubi: I think bitcoin needs to protect minority opinions, hard forks don't do this
344 2017-05-22T19:26:18  <Chris_Stewart_5> soft forks do
345 2017-05-22T19:26:21  <arubi> I agree
346 2017-05-22T19:26:46  <abpa> Soft forks should be favored, BIP 148 reinforces that idea
347 2017-05-22T19:26:59  <arubi> yes, that's what I gathered from it too
348 2017-05-22T19:27:19  <Chris_Stewart_5> Food for thought any way -- i've been thinking about that a lot :/
349 2017-05-22T19:27:30  <arubi> sure me too
350 2017-05-22T19:27:45  <arubi> the more 2017 advances, the more it becomes the most eventful year in bitcoin yet :)
351 2017-05-22T19:28:06  <abpa> It's a similar chicken and the egg problem to bitcoin: how can we have currency that is volatile? it has to be volatile before it is not volatile
352 2017-05-22T19:28:08  <Chris_Stewart_5> bitcoin is never boring -- i think we are due for an exchange to lose like 10MM in bitcoin any day now :P
353 2017-05-22T19:28:24  <abpa> BIP 148 has to be contentious before it is not contentious
354 2017-05-22T19:29:18  <Chris_Stewart_5> I think gmax had a good passage in a dev mailing list post about how the reputation of the system as conservative/rock solid is more important than contemporary changes
355 2017-05-22T19:29:20  <arubi> hopefully network effect takes in and bip148 gains more adoption.  this is crucial.. hopefully it's merged in core soon
356 2017-05-22T19:29:52  <arubi> yea, that post is correct, but we have new information now
357 2017-05-22T19:29:54  <abpa> Sometimes you have to take the least bad of two bad options
358 2017-05-22T19:30:15  <abpa> BIP9 was the safest rollout
359 2017-05-22T19:30:17  <Chris_Stewart_5> Hopefully we can get some major economic players to support BIP148. That would make me feel a lot better about it :-)
360 2017-05-22T19:30:22  <arubi> some rich folk set up a gathering in twitter and are now deciding to hard fork bitcoin in september
361 2017-05-22T19:30:52  <arubi> they have lots of signers, I'm sure you've seen barry's tweets etc
362 2017-05-22T19:31:07  <abpa> There's also a soft fork component to it
363 2017-05-22T19:31:23  <Chris_Stewart_5> I think we have successfully looped around to the beginning of the scaling debate -- didn't we have the exact same agreement like 2 years ago?
364 2017-05-22T19:31:25  <arubi> it's incompatible with segwit if that's what you mean
365 2017-05-22T19:31:28  <arubi> with bip141 that is
366 2017-05-22T19:31:31  <Chris_Stewart_5> exact same "agreement" i should say
367 2017-05-22T19:31:35  <arubi> they will be signaling bit 2
368 2017-05-22T19:31:59  <arubi> so 0.13.1+ nodes are dead anyway
369 2017-05-22T19:32:18  <arubi> we really have no choice but to take the network..
370 2017-05-22T19:32:40  <abpa> There's been lots of dumb agreements
371 2017-05-22T19:32:40  <arubi> this is really doomsday miners soft forking some contentious change on top of us
372 2017-05-22T19:33:41  <abpa> XT agreement (all the miners signed it) and BIP 101 (lots of blocks signal it) and the classic agreement (all the miners signed it) and then BU (lots blocks signal it)
373 2017-05-22T19:34:10  <arubi> this time it's really on a different scale
374 2017-05-22T19:34:13  <arubi> at least imo
375 2017-05-22T19:34:27  <Chris_Stewart_5> arubi: abpa Check out sdaftuar 's post on the mailing list. It is pretty good IMO.
376 2017-05-22T19:34:47  <arubi> link?  if it's part of the gmax thread then I've read them all
377 2017-05-22T19:34:57  <abpa> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-May/014377.html
378 2017-05-22T19:35:05  <Chris_Stewart_5> It is like 10 minute sold
379 2017-05-22T19:35:09  <arubi> I was against bip148 even before that email, and really I had the same opinion
380 2017-05-22T19:35:15  <arubi> ahh alright
381 2017-05-22T19:35:19  <arubi> /humbled
382 2017-05-22T19:35:31  <Chris_Stewart_5> lol I just constantly spam refresh on the mailing list ;)
383 2017-05-22T19:36:14  <arubi> I have to sign up sometime and just get it over with :)
384 2017-05-22T19:36:20  <abpa> He's even against BIP 149
385 2017-05-22T19:36:34  <sdaftuar> i am?
386 2017-05-22T19:36:54  <abpa> > I'd recommend that we do so in a more careful way than BIP 148 or 149 currently suggest
387 2017-05-22T19:37:05  <sdaftuar> i think bip 149 has plenty of time for improvements
388 2017-05-22T19:37:13  <sdaftuar> my suggestions are not consensus critical, merely less disruptive
389 2017-05-22T19:37:41  <abpa> I misunderstood then
390 2017-05-22T19:38:18  <abpa> BIP 148 is a catch 22 - it would be perfectly safe if everyone ran it and then it is risky if no one runs it so if people avoid running it because it is risky they are self-defeating
391 2017-05-22T19:38:38  <Chris_Stewart_5> abpa: That appllies to every fork variation though. We want it to be safe even if people are *not* running it
392 2017-05-22T19:38:43  <arubi> sdaftuar, don't you think there's an element of urgency here now that we found out what miner's and co. have been discussing?
393 2017-05-22T19:39:15  <sdaftuar> no, i really don't.  i think segwit is great technology.  but i think we shoulnd't rush consensus changes in order to achieve it.
394 2017-05-22T19:39:38  <sdaftuar> in my view, in the long run it matters more whether we can maintain consensus than whether segwit activates this year or in 5 years
395 2017-05-22T19:39:40  <arubi> I'm worried about them activating segwit in a non bip9 manner
396 2017-05-22T19:39:41  <abpa> Why target 148 specifically and not make statements about this new bit 4 segwit - 2mb HF scheme as well?
397 2017-05-22T19:39:52  <abpa> That seems equally or more disruptive
398 2017-05-22T19:39:56  <sdaftuar> bip 148 has a PR that i oppose!
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400 2017-05-22T19:40:20  <abpa> Yeah that was unfortunate
401 2017-05-22T19:40:26  <Chris_Stewart_5> abpa: The whole sw + 2MB thing sounds theoretical at best right now, BIP148 has concrete code
402 2017-05-22T19:40:37  <arubi> sdaftuar, they might start enforcing segwit without the current bip9 bit or using some other one
403 2017-05-22T19:40:51  <abpa> That risks a split but not much more than that
404 2017-05-22T19:40:58  <arubi> that would mean that new software would have to be rolled out immediately anyway
405 2017-05-22T19:40:58  <abpa> You can just avoid using that segwit
406 2017-05-22T19:40:59  <Chris_Stewart_5> also, arubi you need to get on the mailing list lol
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408 2017-05-22T19:41:08  <arubi> :)
409 2017-05-22T19:41:35  <sdaftuar> arubi: i think we should all carefully evaluate when a proposal appears, for sure.
410 2017-05-22T19:42:00  <arubi> it's almost out there by now.. we can't wait until the last moment
411 2017-05-22T19:42:43  <abpa> Maybe we can see further discussion of BIP 149/BIP 8 strategies so we can have more thinking about how they can solve the problem
412 2017-05-22T19:42:44  <sdaftuar> arubi: part of the reason for my email was to fight the sense that some people seem to have that there will be some impending doom if we don't act quickly.
413 2017-05-22T19:43:14  <sdaftuar> arubi: if people believe that consensus can really change at the drop of a hat, i think bitcoin has bigger problems than any of us have previously thought
414 2017-05-22T19:43:36  <arubi> sdaftuar, it does have bigger problems than I assumed at least
415 2017-05-22T19:43:43  <abpa> It seems like people are looking to BIP 8 and BIP 149 as the solution but those are kind of unknown quantities because they haven't received a lot of feedback
416 2017-05-22T19:43:47  <arubi> asicboost, antbleed, bitmain altogether
417 2017-05-22T19:43:57  <arubi> this isn't healthy and will not be going into the future
418 2017-05-22T19:44:24  <Chris_Stewart_5> I actually think it would be interesting to deploy a fix for covert (invisible) ASICBOOST via UASF first. I think that is something the entire community could get behind
419 2017-05-22T19:44:40  <arubi> right, I am very for that too
420 2017-05-22T19:44:41  <Chris_Stewart_5> and obviously a large group of miners would be against it.
421 2017-05-22T19:44:47  <arubi> but bip148 is a superset of that
422 2017-05-22T19:45:02  <arubi> (at least if you include segwit transactions)
423 2017-05-22T19:45:04  <Chris_Stewart_5> arubi: Sort of. BIP148 doesn't fix covert ASICBOOST
424 2017-05-22T19:45:08  <Chris_Stewart_5> yea
425 2017-05-22T19:45:35  <arubi> eventually, it would be a lot easier after the commitment is used almost by everyone
426 2017-05-22T19:45:40  <arubi> except boosters that is
427 2017-05-22T19:45:58  <arubi> currently only f2pool has wtxid commitment
428 2017-05-22T19:46:07  <Chris_Stewart_5> Yeah, bluematt made made an argument that they will eventually be forced to implement it because they will lose out on segwit fees
429 2017-05-22T19:46:26  <Chris_Stewart_5> and fees are something like 30% of the block reward right now I think
430 2017-05-22T19:47:03  <arubi> things like MAST that can carry huge scripts in the witness..  I can't believe miners don't consider those
431 2017-05-22T19:47:33  <Chris_Stewart_5> What? Doesn't MAST adhere to the 10,000 byte script size?
432 2017-05-22T19:48:06  <Chris_Stewart_5> Only the 'happy path' is revealed in MAST, so that has to be <= 10,000 bytes IIRC
433 2017-05-22T19:48:22  <arubi> it does, but currently one script in p2sh is standard at 520 bytes
434 2017-05-22T19:48:42  <arubi> the path itself can be huge
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436 2017-05-22T19:49:14  <Chris_Stewart_5> I'm confused. Can't you just use P2SH(P2WSH()) and then place MAST in the witness?
437 2017-05-22T19:49:56  <arubi> yes, but that witness can be a lot bigger than what a p2sh script in itself could be and still be standard
438 2017-05-22T19:50:20  <arubi> either the path or the script itself (concatenated scripts)
439 2017-05-22T19:50:44  <arubi> you could have a really big stack executing many concatenated scripts
440 2017-05-22T19:50:45  <Chris_Stewart_5> Does segwit enforce each witness stack item to be < 520 bytes?
441 2017-05-22T19:51:17  <arubi> probably not
442 2017-05-22T19:51:30  <arubi> oh each item!
443 2017-05-22T19:51:33  <arubi> not sure
444 2017-05-22T19:51:45  <Chris_Stewart_5> I know in old scripts the max push size is 520
445 2017-05-22T19:51:56  <arubi> hmm so maybe I'm confused here
446 2017-05-22T19:52:15  <arubi> well no I can't be
447 2017-05-22T19:52:31  <arubi> that's why you can't have like 20/20 multisig in p2sh right
448 2017-05-22T19:52:41  <arubi> oh, well yes
449 2017-05-22T19:52:43  <Chris_Stewart_5> Yes, the keys would be to big
450 2017-05-22T19:52:46  <arubi> that's the script being pushed :)
451 2017-05-22T19:52:57  <Chris_Stewart_5> 33 * 20 > 520
452 2017-05-22T19:53:00  <arubi> thanks for rubber duck etc. :)
453 2017-05-22T19:54:29  <arubi> Chris_Stewart_5, just checked, it follows the same rules.  max 10k bytes for script size and 520 for push
454 2017-05-22T19:54:50  <Chris_Stewart_5> Yeah, now that I was thinking about it, it would be a HF if it didn't I think
455 2017-05-22T19:55:25  <arubi> yes, sounds like it now
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484 2017-05-22T22:52:51  <abpa> Seems like BlueMatt and Lightsword made a new proposal
485 2017-05-22T22:54:00  <Lightsword> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-May/014380.html
486 2017-05-22T22:56:46  <abpa> Looks smart, hope suhas likes
487 2017-05-22T23:33:05  <abpa> luke-jr when can this get a bip #?
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