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83 2017-06-04T10:08:40 <mem0x> hi, I'm trying to figure out how to deserialize the chainstate structure in level db (the 'c' record), I'm looking at the Unserialize method in coins.h but don't understand what it's doing. any pointer? other place in the code I should look at?
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93 2017-06-04T10:41:42 <mem0x> to answer my own question, this was what I was looking for: https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/31978/how-does-serializing-in-coins-h-work
94 2017-06-04T10:41:45 <mem0x> :)
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167 2017-06-04T18:00:27 <Iriez> Could someone please confirm whether replay attack protection is even possible under BIP148? It seems to be overly complicated to attempt to get your coins confirmed on what will be the BIP148 chain, while not confirmed on the legacy chain post august 1st.
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169 2017-06-04T18:01:53 <Iriez> The only realistic option I've had theorized to me would be for BIP148 miners to offer a coinjoin on their bip148 block reward. Which requires some amount of trut and coordination.
170 2017-06-04T18:02:59 <arubi> at the time of the split, see which chain is advancing faster, send a timelocked transaction to some blocks in the future, and redeem earliest as possible
171 2017-06-04T18:03:37 <arubi> if it confirms right away and the slower chain didn't catch up yet, you're guaranteed successful replay protection for yourself
172 2017-06-04T18:04:24 <Iriez> arubi: but what if the slower chain does catch up?
173 2017-06-04T18:04:36 <Iriez> wouldn't it also then confirm that tx on the other chain?
174 2017-06-04T18:05:37 <Iriez> or is the point of the timelock to expire before the slow chain can catch up?
175 2017-06-04T18:05:38 <arubi> I don't think it'll get relayed on the slower chain's network
176 2017-06-04T18:05:44 <arubi> because it's not final yet
177 2017-06-04T18:06:01 <Iriez> right, its not final until the timelock passes
178 2017-06-04T18:06:03 <arubi> so then you spend to a different output on the slower chain when it does catch up
179 2017-06-04T18:06:04 <Iriez> hum, thats good.
180 2017-06-04T18:06:36 <Iriez> At least, its much better than everything else I've seen, but still......not good enough to create the massive move of funds to the bip148 chain.
181 2017-06-04T18:06:58 <Iriez> How many people are going to be willing to do this?
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183 2017-06-04T18:07:09 <Iriez> Not enough to move the needle in favor of bip148 im thinking, not enough by a landslide.
184 2017-06-04T18:07:48 <arubi> it's not very easy, right, but I think miners would love to pay into exchanges as fast as possible after the fork
185 2017-06-04T18:08:00 <arubi> and that would take 100 blocks
186 2017-06-04T18:08:35 <arubi> slowly if people move their non replayable funds to exchanges, then it all gets mixed quickly
187 2017-06-04T18:08:50 <Iriez> which would incentivize them to stick to the chain that confirms the fastest.
188 2017-06-04T18:08:56 <Iriez> e.g. most hashpower
189 2017-06-04T18:09:09 <arubi> oh I think exchanges would love supporting both chains
190 2017-06-04T18:09:19 <Iriez> well my foots tapping waiting for announcements :P
191 2017-06-04T18:09:48 <arubi> it's a sure thing imo. the fees are going to be significant if it happens
192 2017-06-04T18:10:13 <arubi> but really I think bip148 will pass very quickly :)
193 2017-06-04T18:10:25 <Iriez> In favor of or against?
194 2017-06-04T18:10:41 <arubi> in favor, pass successfully
195 2017-06-04T18:11:15 <Iriez> Hum. I was on that side, and the more I learn the more I think it wont do very much. But that depends on ecosystem support
196 2017-06-04T18:11:25 <Iriez> if exchanges do support it broadly, then chances for success are much greater
197 2017-06-04T18:11:50 <arubi> any player on the legacy chain risks losing everything
198 2017-06-04T18:12:17 <Iriez> assuming the bip148 continues
199 2017-06-04T18:12:24 <arubi> it has to
200 2017-06-04T18:12:35 <arubi> I mean, if it's worth anything, it will be mined
201 2017-06-04T18:12:35 <Iriez> What if users have difficulty transacting on that chain?
202 2017-06-04T18:12:52 <Iriez> if theres no economic activity solely on that side, then it wont be worth anything
203 2017-06-04T18:13:01 <Iriez> but that would require users to split
204 2017-06-04T18:13:03 <arubi> if it's not completely halted
205 2017-06-04T18:13:17 <Iriez> and right now there doesn't seem a easy way to do that
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207 2017-06-04T18:13:31 <Iriez> however if exchanges got involved then it would be much easier as they could guarantee bip148 coins
208 2017-06-04T18:13:39 <Iriez> (at least, I think so?)
209 2017-06-04T18:14:13 <arubi> well, they're taking a risk. they might want to exchange all profits to bip148 coins :)
210 2017-06-04T18:14:47 <Iriez> Hrm, now thats got me thinking. CAN exchanges guarantee bip148 coins?
211 2017-06-04T18:14:59 <Iriez> It would require enormous backend work I think, but possible given some time
212 2017-06-04T18:15:02 <arubi> the bip148 chain is guaranteed
213 2017-06-04T18:15:30 <Iriez> yes, but there is no guarantee that a tx sent wont be confirmed on both sides
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215 2017-06-04T18:15:43 <Iriez> so the exchange would have to send from uxto's that have already been split on bip148's side
216 2017-06-04T18:16:03 <arubi> they can't support double spends
217 2017-06-04T18:16:13 <Iriez> its not a double spend if its on 2 diff chain?
218 2017-06-04T18:16:13 <arubi> or maybe they can
219 2017-06-04T18:16:27 <arubi> I mean, just fund both the user's wallets
220 2017-06-04T18:16:30 <Iriez> and the other chain would ignore the tx if its from a bip148 only uxto
221 2017-06-04T18:16:48 <arubi> why ignore it though? maybe the person did want it sent to both wallets?
222 2017-06-04T18:16:53 <Iriez> ah, yes, i see where you are going BUT, how can you guarantee that it will get confirmed on both chains?
223 2017-06-04T18:17:05 <arubi> you don't have to, it's independent
224 2017-06-04T18:17:09 <Iriez> I suppose a high enough fee will sort that.
225 2017-06-04T18:17:12 <arubi> you treat it as you would any client
226 2017-06-04T18:17:15 <Iriez> right
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228 2017-06-04T18:18:40 <Iriez> Thanks, you've added some good perspective.
229 2017-06-04T18:18:54 <arubi> cheers, hopefully segwit will be active by then :)
230 2017-06-04T18:19:22 <Iriez> so, if it sends it to both wallets, then the coins are not split.
231 2017-06-04T18:19:48 <arubi> as long as it's on their exchange, the user just handles their virtual balance
232 2017-06-04T18:19:58 <arubi> that they track anyway across altcoins that they support
233 2017-06-04T18:20:00 <Iriez> how would the exchange ensure if the user withdrawals from the bip148 wallet that it goes to the bip148 chain?
234 2017-06-04T18:20:21 <arubi> they send to the user from an output already exclusively on the bip148 chain
235 2017-06-04T18:20:28 <Iriez> They would have to have a pool of coins already on bip148
236 2017-06-04T18:20:40 <arubi> right, even if there were replay protection
237 2017-06-04T18:20:51 <Iriez> Yea, this is freaking complicated =)
238 2017-06-04T18:21:12 <arubi> hehe, interesting times
239 2017-06-04T18:21:22 <Iriez> but, I guess it could be made...somewhat easy, as long as the exchanges were on board
240 2017-06-04T18:21:32 <arubi> they like exchange fees
241 2017-06-04T18:21:45 <Iriez> for users wishing to transact on bip148 chain outside of exchanges though....thats a problem
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244 2017-06-04T18:23:05 <Iriez> So the exchanges can receive coins, and then split it internally, and then virtually assign balances. But users cannot do this, so they have no option other than trying that timelock trick
245 2017-06-04T18:23:11 <arubi> yea.. maybe if hashrate is so evenly divided that both chains will continue for some time, then there would be some need for replay protection or some service to help
246 2017-06-04T18:23:20 <Iriez> right
247 2017-06-04T18:23:48 <Iriez> exchanges could offer such a service, for a fee. Or wallet developers. Hey what about belcher's coinjoin network?
248 2017-06-04T18:23:49 <arubi> but as soon as the bip148 chain gains considerable hashrate, this is all retroactively not needed :)
249 2017-06-04T18:23:53 <Iriez> Seems like that would be a good candidate
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251 2017-06-04T18:24:41 <arubi> or miners could create some 0 amout outputs for users to use (on demand) for replay protection on their first transaction on the chain
252 2017-06-04T18:25:03 <Iriez> Right, I thought of that
253 2017-06-04T18:25:11 <Iriez> I just hesitate using miners as service providers
254 2017-06-04T18:25:21 <Iriez> really skews the dynamics of the system
255 2017-06-04T18:25:28 <arubi> it can be very close to non interactive
256 2017-06-04T18:25:51 <arubi> just have a pool of 0 amount outputs that you publish at demand, and listen for their use
257 2017-06-04T18:25:59 <arubi> if it's used, remove it
258 2017-06-04T18:26:09 <hcb_> Is this the right place to ask about Bitcoin Core operation?
259 2017-06-04T18:26:16 <arubi> not like block space is an issue at first, more so if it's segwit inputs ;)
260 2017-06-04T18:26:54 <arubi> hcb_, you can try, but if it's development related maybe #bitcoin-core-dev is better. if it's just bitcoin core related, then #bitcoin
261 2017-06-04T18:27:06 <hcb_> Ok, moving there. Thanks.
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263 2017-06-04T18:27:54 <Iriez> arubi, wouldn't it require the miners to give you the keys to the 0 output?
264 2017-06-04T18:28:13 <Iriez> or are we trusting them to transfer funds from that address back to our address?
265 2017-06-04T18:28:16 <arubi> just simple no checksig required scripts
266 2017-06-04T18:28:43 <arubi> as long as it exists on the bip148 chain only, then you can include it in your transaction and it wouldn't be replayable
267 2017-06-04T18:28:50 <arubi> like op_true is enough
268 2017-06-04T18:29:05 <Iriez> so, its almost like a coinjoin?
269 2017-06-04T18:29:11 <Iriez> sorry, im not following this one :P
270 2017-06-04T18:29:54 <arubi> so say a miner has some movable coins on the bip148 chain
271 2017-06-04T18:30:28 <arubi> they can spend these coins to themselves and also to some zero amount script that only says "op_true"
272 2017-06-04T18:30:56 <arubi> so you have some tx where output 0 pays back to the miner, and output 1 is just a zero amount redeemable by anyone
273 2017-06-04T18:31:35 <arubi> I want to transact on the bip148 chain, I ask the miner to tell me about some utxo that I can use in my transaction as an input, and it has to be on the bip148 chain only
274 2017-06-04T18:32:13 <Iriez> I think where im not understanding is how you can use/redeem a 0 balance utxo
275 2017-06-04T18:32:19 <arubi> so the miner tells me about a utxo, one of these op_true outputs, I use that as an input in my transaction and relay
276 2017-06-04T18:32:36 <arubi> you redeem it as you normally would, it just costs you fees
277 2017-06-04T18:32:54 <arubi> you can't really use "op_true" in a bare way like that
278 2017-06-04T18:32:58 <Iriez> but there's nothing to redeem? haha, this is just me clearly not understanding the underlying mechanisms well enough.
279 2017-06-04T18:33:08 <Iriez> I thought you couldn't spend from a 0 utxo
280 2017-06-04T18:33:34 <arubi> you could, and you can create one too, but you can't create a valid 0 -> 0 tx :)
281 2017-06-04T18:33:55 <arubi> so really op_true is just simplification
282 2017-06-04T18:33:59 <Iriez> So it could only be used in conjunction with another input?
283 2017-06-04T18:34:12 <arubi> you need some p2sh with a random value to wrap that, or people would just abuse it
284 2017-06-04T18:34:16 <arubi> yes
285 2017-06-04T18:34:26 <Iriez> thats super interesting, I had no idea.
286 2017-06-04T18:35:24 <Iriez> so the miners could setup a page on their node that could generate a 0 utxo on the fly for you to use as one of your inputs
287 2017-06-04T18:35:36 <Iriez> realistically, wallet dev's could do this as well, couldn't they?
288 2017-06-04T18:35:45 <Iriez> once they have some coins that are split, couldn't they just generate them?
289 2017-06-04T18:35:47 <arubi> yea, anyone can offer this service
290 2017-06-04T18:35:56 <Iriez> So electrum would be a good candidate
291 2017-06-04T18:36:04 <Iriez> since they already provide outbound servers
292 2017-06-04T18:36:12 <arubi> if you sign your transaction just right (allow for others to include more inputs), then you can just ask someone else to do it for you
293 2017-06-04T18:36:41 <Iriez> so they could also have a raw tx input submission form or API and they could just relay it for you with the 0 utxo added
294 2017-06-04T18:37:06 <arubi> right, if you used some sighash that allows more inputs
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296 2017-06-04T18:37:41 <Iriez> Do you know if anyone is actually working on these things? Seems essential for these services to exist
297 2017-06-04T18:38:02 <arubi> don't know, just now talking about it because you brought it up :)
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299 2017-06-04T18:38:46 <Iriez> Cool. Well now my mental framework is much more solid on the subject. I can see the path but not the end of the road.
300 2017-06-04T18:40:19 <arubi> I really think that as long as the bip148 chain is impossible to reorg (soft fork nature), that it's zero risk to consider as a money transaction network
301 2017-06-04T18:40:32 <arubi> no matter the price even. if it's cheap, just buy coins :)
302 2017-06-04T18:40:54 <Iriez> hum.
303 2017-06-04T18:58:05 <arubi> so now I think if it's possible to use cltv and csv at the same time to assert "this chain advanced quickly enough to redeem this input"
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306 2017-06-04T19:00:13 <arubi> sort of "redeemable 600 minutes /and/ 8 blocks from now" or something :)
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308 2017-06-04T19:02:29 <arubi> maybe just csv and locktime in block height
309 2017-06-04T19:03:04 <arubi> but.. maybe not :\
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311 2017-06-04T19:03:44 <arubi> well yea, maybe so because time passes faster on the longer chain
312 2017-06-04T19:04:39 <arubi> good thing I have a month+ to try :)
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341 2017-06-04T20:38:21 <Iriez> arubi: Super cool. I'll bug you now and then to see how progress is going =)
342 2017-06-04T20:38:32 <Iriez> Im very interested in understanding how this is evolving
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