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167 2017-09-02T13:25:19  <RealM9> Bitcoin network is easy to monitor right now for state-level or ISP level actors. They can 1)see IPs of lightweight node/SPV node users, because when they announce TX, it's unencrypted 2)monitor Full node traffic and determine which TXes are created by them 3)monitor Full nodes and see which TXes are announced to them by lighweight/SPV nodes, thus identify them by IP.
168 2017-09-02T13:25:43  <RealM9> After that, this state level actor can associate names with bitcoin addresses
169 2017-09-02T13:26:59  <RealM9> Currently,U.S agency like NSA can do it easily, because they intercept all U.S network traffic for 24h (iirc), so they can create specific apps for blockchain monitoring and identify a huge part of bitcoin network
170 2017-09-02T13:28:25  <RealM9> The problem is that TXes are unencrypted. I read BIP151 (it encryots communications between nodes) and it's a great idea, that will make bitcoin network more private. But as i understand, it will be optional for everybody to use
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172 2017-09-02T13:30:31  <esotericnonsense> RealM9: you can run bitcoin over tor if you like
173 2017-09-02T13:30:36  <esotericnonsense> RealM9: LN connections are encrypted also
174 2017-09-02T13:30:36  <RealM9> To make bitcoin network private, first of all, all full node TX data should be encrypted when relayed BY DEFAULT. Block data should stay unencrypted, because it's faster and there is no need for it to be encrypted. But all TX data should be encrypted
175 2017-09-02T13:31:29  <RealM9> Yes, i understand. TOR can make your tx private. But what i'm thinking is that all TXes should be private at protocol level. ISPs shouldn't see your TX data, if it's not over tor
176 2017-09-02T13:31:52  <RealM9> I think most of network TX data should be encrypted, when sent
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178 2017-09-02T13:32:11  <RealM9> Everyone should have some privacy by default.
179 2017-09-02T13:32:58  <RealM9> Sure, gov can operate many full nodes, but that's harder. If every connection is open and not encrypted, it's so easy to perform mass surveillance
180 2017-09-02T13:33:05  <RealM9> Think about it
181 2017-09-02T13:34:00  <esotericnonsense> RealM9: unauthenticated encryption is a problem wrt mitm as well if you want to do this for everyone
182 2017-09-02T13:34:01  <esotericnonsense> however
183 2017-09-02T13:34:19  <esotericnonsense> additionally I think 'by default' is a bit of a strange bar, your problem is that there are so many different implementations of wallets
184 2017-09-02T13:35:13  <esotericnonsense> at the moment a bunch of them use centralised block explorer sites to show details about transactions
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186 2017-09-02T13:35:44  <RealM9> Bitcoin core at least
187 2017-09-02T13:36:21  <RealM9> I think there was some BIP, how to protect against MITM, but i don't know much about it
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189 2017-09-02T13:38:10  <RealM9> I mean, use encrytion whenever is possible
190 2017-09-02T13:41:59  <bytting> RealM9: The question becomes, how much is enough, and what goes into the core protocol layer, and what should go into the second layer. ANd what is the goals, fungibility, personal security...
191 2017-09-02T13:42:06  <Megumiin> https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0151.mediawiki
192 2017-09-02T13:44:39  <RealM9> I think all TX data should be encrypted at the protocol layer
193 2017-09-02T13:45:18  <RealM9> Think about websites. They use HTTPS, to stop ISPs and attackers from monitoring traffic
194 2017-09-02T13:45:33  <Megumiin> websites are not peer-to-peer
195 2017-09-02T13:45:54  <RealM9> And what problems does p2p create?
196 2017-09-02T13:45:59  <Megumiin> Authentication
197 2017-09-02T13:46:12  <RealM9> Are there any solutions?
198 2017-09-02T13:46:13  <Megumiin> How do you know you're talking to another peer instead of a MITM setup by your ISP?
199 2017-09-02T13:46:15  <Megumiin> No
200 2017-09-02T13:46:33  <Megumiin> Short of accepting encryption without authentication
201 2017-09-02T13:46:46  <Megumiin> but that doesn't prevent your ISP from listening
202 2017-09-02T13:46:58  <Megumiin> It just makes it slightly harder and noticible
203 2017-09-02T13:47:12  <RealM9> iirc there was some BIP for authentication, no?
204 2017-09-02T13:47:40  <Megumiin> no, only unauthenticated encryption
205 2017-09-02T13:47:50  <Megumiin> (BIP151, which I just linked)
206 2017-09-02T13:47:51  <esotericnonsense> think about what you are typing :)
207 2017-09-02T13:47:58  <esotericnonsense> authenticated communication to nodes makes no sense
208 2017-09-02T13:48:02  <esotericnonsense> the point is that they are unknown entities
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210 2017-09-02T13:48:46  <esotericnonsense> at best you could do something like ssh TOFU
211 2017-09-02T13:49:27  <Megumiin> esotericnonsense: ips change, having pinned keys to ips could quickly isolate yourself from valid nodes
212 2017-09-02T13:50:09  <Megumiin> TOFU only works when you're directly aware of when keys would change and to no longer expect previous keys
213 2017-09-02T13:50:43  <RealM9> What abiu
214 2017-09-02T13:50:48  <esotericnonsense> Megumiin: yeah, i kind of feel like this is just an intractable problem by definition, but i can see some degraded security mode vaguely, it's just hard to pin down
215 2017-09-02T13:50:55  <RealM9> What about BIP150?
216 2017-09-02T13:51:07  <esotericnonsense> i genuinely think this is a waste of time though. protect against ISP = vpn or tor (if you're not doing that anyway you've already lost in various other ways)
217 2017-09-02T13:51:16  <esotericnonsense> protect against state level = ha
218 2017-09-02T13:51:19  <esotericnonsense> ho ho ho he he he
219 2017-09-02T13:51:56  <RealM9> Well, state can't hack any node. And if you use some good encryption...
220 2017-09-02T13:52:16  <Megumiin> RealM9: that is an opt-in equivilent which only works if you directly add autheticated nodes.
221 2017-09-02T13:52:19  <esotericnonsense> without authentication they can actively mitm it
222 2017-09-02T13:52:30  <esotericnonsense> or they can just sybil you
223 2017-09-02T13:52:37  <Megumiin> If using tor isn't a viable alternative, this is not either
224 2017-09-02T13:52:56  <RealM9> Hm...shit...
225 2017-09-02T13:53:04  <esotericnonsense> also 'state can't hack any node' is kind of an odd view to have
226 2017-09-02T13:53:17  <RealM9> Every
227 2017-09-02T13:53:19  <esotericnonsense> mass surveillance protection is one thing, targeted attacks = give up
228 2017-09-02T13:53:21  <RealM9> Sorry, typo
229 2017-09-02T13:53:22  <esotericnonsense> sure
230 2017-09-02T13:53:39  * esotericnonsense wanders off for a bit
231 2017-09-02T13:53:42  <RealM9> That's what i think. We need to fight mass surveillance
232 2017-09-02T13:54:23  <RealM9> If gov want to deanonymise someone it's a one thing. But if they monitor everybody, that's a problem
233 2017-09-02T13:54:24  <Megumiin> If your only goal is to prevent passive surveillance bip151 is probably suffecient
234 2017-09-02T13:55:01  <RealM9> Well, yeah, but it's very vulnerable...yeah
235 2017-09-02T13:55:31  <RealM9> Hm, btw, how does the TOR protect against MITM?
236 2017-09-02T13:56:11  <bytting> States could certainly need some protection against themself
237 2017-09-02T13:56:17  <Megumiin> It doesn't, it just makes it extremely difficult to link the transaction back to you
238 2017-09-02T13:56:44  <RealM9> I mean tor protocol. How does it protect against MITM
239 2017-09-02T13:56:49  <RealM9> It's p2p too
240 2017-09-02T13:56:58  <Megumiin> It doesn't really
241 2017-09-02T13:57:04  <Megumiin> Any exit node is a defacto MITM
242 2017-09-02T13:57:16  <RealM9> What about entry nodes?
243 2017-09-02T13:57:31  <Megumiin> Any entry/relay node is a MITM, but they only get encrypted packets which they can't read
244 2017-09-02T13:58:40  <RealM9> But when tor user tries to reach all nodes, entry, relay, exit. Could ISP mitm all these connections?
245 2017-09-02T13:59:04  <RealM9> Oh, right now i understand. It doesnt work because tor goes trough various ISPs/countries...
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248 2017-09-02T14:00:18  <RealM9> Mitm attack*
249 2017-09-02T14:01:25  <RealM9> Wait but no... fuck, now i fucking don't understand it. Could they?
250 2017-09-02T14:01:51  <Megumiin> If every single entry/relay/exit node you used cooperated, they could fully track and MITM your connection.
251 2017-09-02T14:02:05  <Megumiin> Tor only attempts to make that unlikely
252 2017-09-02T14:02:14  <Megumiin> This is getting offtopic
253 2017-09-02T14:04:33  <RealM9> Yeah... But if i understand correctly, a tor user first receives public keys of entry,relay,exit node no? ISP could possibly mitm these connections and insert his pubkeys, no?
254 2017-09-02T14:04:52  <RealM9> Maybe i don't understand it well enough
255 2017-09-02T14:07:28  <Megumiin> I couldn't tell you the speciffics, but I assume the tor clients trust tor's authenticaed list of nodes
256 2017-09-02T14:08:34  <Megumiin> https://tor.stackexchange.com/questions/5/what-impact-does-tors-bootstrapping-process-have-for-attack-models
257 2017-09-02T14:09:55  <Megumiin> https://www.torproject.org/docs/faq#KeyManagement
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259 2017-09-02T14:23:17  <RealM9> What if biggest full-node peer IP seed servers would use encrypted communication and their pubkey would be hard coded into full node softwares? Then they would receive peer IP info with their PubKeys? Then node could connect other peers and request their peer info+peer pubkeys. All pubkeys would be saved and wheny later used again, do it won't need to connect
260 2017-09-02T14:24:10  <RealM9> *...when used again, it will have their pubkeys saved, so no more authentication needed
261 2017-09-02T14:24:24  <RealM9> Problem would be if keys would be changed
262 2017-09-02T14:24:33  <RealM9> All trust would start at the seeds
263 2017-09-02T14:24:54  <RealM9> What do you think about something like this?
264 2017-09-02T14:25:30  <esotericnonsense> centralized seeds kill the idea
265 2017-09-02T14:25:43  <RealM9> But there are centralized seeds already, no?
266 2017-09-02T14:26:15  <RealM9> Also, node will need to use them only once. At the first connection
267 2017-09-02T14:26:59  <RealM9> Then it can just connect to other encrypted nodes and if needed, receive other encrypted peer info from them
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269 2017-09-02T14:27:11  <RealM9> Seed is just the start of the trust
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271 2017-09-02T14:28:55  <RealM9> Sure, if seed gets hacked and it's private key exposed AND if it's world level attacker, it could MITM everybody
272 2017-09-02T14:29:53  <Megumiin> RealM9: It could also lie, and split the network, lie and make people unaware to find other nodes
273 2017-09-02T14:30:30  <RealM9> But it already can, no?
274 2017-09-02T14:30:33  <Megumiin> no
275 2017-09-02T14:30:43  <RealM9> There are seeds already
276 2017-09-02T14:30:53  <Megumiin> They only point you in the right direction
277 2017-09-02T14:30:58  <Megumiin> They don't tell you who you can/can't trust
278 2017-09-02T14:31:16  <RealM9> Hm, i don't understand
279 2017-09-02T14:31:29  <RealM9> They send you other full node IPs, no?
280 2017-09-02T14:31:37  <Megumiin> Yes, but they aren't authenticated
281 2017-09-02T14:31:50  <RealM9> Now they would send you full node IPs+their pubkeys
282 2017-09-02T14:31:51  <Megumiin> There are a few ways which you can find peers
283 2017-09-02T14:31:58  <Megumiin> What if they lie about their public keys?
284 2017-09-02T14:32:15  <RealM9> who?
285 2017-09-02T14:32:22  <RealM9> K...
286 2017-09-02T14:32:30  <Megumiin> The "trusted" person who tells you the list
287 2017-09-02T14:32:38  <Megumiin> What if that list is down?
288 2017-09-02T14:32:56  <Megumiin> What if that list is compromised by some government?
289 2017-09-02T14:32:59  <RealM9> If that list is down, new nodes couldn't connect
290 2017-09-02T14:33:04  <RealM9> Hm...
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292 2017-09-02T14:33:07  <RealM9> Yeah
293 2017-09-02T14:33:24  <Megumiin> It becomes a centralized point of failure
294 2017-09-02T14:33:56  <RealM9> You're right... fck
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312 2017-09-02T15:36:18  <RealM9> Is there any possible way how to solve this authentication problem?
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