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46 2017-10-01T03:31:12 <wallet42> esotericnonsense: that's what i though it would do but it felt highly inefficient. but i guess that's the whole point why it's deprecated
47 2017-10-01T03:33:26 <esotericnonsense> wallet42: i'm not fully up to scratch on the chainstate format (past or present); one thing I remember seeing is that it should be possible to prune spent outputs from it while keeping other outputs within the same transaction
48 2017-10-01T03:33:55 <wallet42> yes the new format is actually quite straigtforward
49 2017-10-01T03:33:57 <esotericnonsense> not sure if that already happens; if it does then getrawtransaction could only work for transactions that have all outputs unspent
50 2017-10-01T03:34:17 <wallet42> yes it needs at least 1 utxo
51 2017-10-01T03:34:35 <wallet42> getting the block height
52 2017-10-01T03:34:46 <wallet42> then looking up in blockindex
53 2017-10-01T03:34:49 <esotericnonsense> ah that's it. right. so it requires 1 utxo _and_ unpruned
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55 2017-10-01T03:35:16 <wallet42> yep
56 2017-10-01T03:35:40 <esotericnonsense> (thinking about it on a theoretical level rather than how it's actually implemented, i don't know if getrawtransaction works at all on a pruned node)
57 2017-10-01T03:36:59 <wallet42> it does, but only best effort
58 2017-10-01T03:38:18 <wallet42> pruning is also just deleting whole blk files
59 2017-10-01T03:38:28 <wallet42> the blockindex has pointers to those files
60 2017-10-01T03:38:34 <wallet42> the pointers dont get removed
61 2017-10-01T03:38:52 <wallet42> but if the data at pointer doesnt exist anymore, it fails
62 2017-10-01T03:44:46 <esotericnonsense> of course :P
63 2017-10-01T03:44:49 <esotericnonsense> okay
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217 2017-10-01T18:20:37 <hidden> so quiet
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225 2017-10-01T19:03:41 <djdjjj> question re. TXs: What's the reason for the actual redeemer's pubkey being included in the tx, given that it already can be found by the txin/index info? (I'm going through https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction)
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231 2017-10-01T19:15:00 <arubi> djdjjj, you mean at signing time? you're right. it doesn't have to be there at all. the prevtx's txid explicitly passes that information to the signature anyway
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233 2017-10-01T19:15:46 <djdjjj> arubi: signing time, yes. So is there any particular reason it's there?
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235 2017-10-01T19:16:25 <arubi> djdjjj, maybe if you could include input scripts into sighash, but other than that it's really not needed. security stays the same
236 2017-10-01T19:18:54 <djdjjj> thx arubi. Another one: when nodes verify if a tx is valid by validating the chain of ownership, how far back (in number of txs) do they go?
237 2017-10-01T19:19:05 <djdjjj> (I'm a newbie to bitcoin btw)
238 2017-10-01T19:20:00 <arubi> they just need to look at their known database of spendable outputs
239 2017-10-01T19:20:22 <arubi> if it isn't there, it's invalid. full nodes have the most updated database at all times if they're connected to the network
240 2017-10-01T19:22:29 <djdjjj> So if I send 1BTC to Bob, full nodes have to validate that I'm the rightful owner of my referenced inputs, right?
241 2017-10-01T19:23:00 <arubi> that's done by verifying you signatures against the inputs' scripts, right
242 2017-10-01T19:23:04 <arubi> (brb)
243 2017-10-01T19:23:41 <djdjjj> right. But don't they have to also verify the inputs of my referenced inputs and so on?
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245 2017-10-01T19:24:20 <djdjjj> eg. what if the referenced input of one of my inputs is invalid
246 2017-10-01T19:24:28 <arubi> no, because you only spend the previous tx's outputs, not the whole chain
247 2017-10-01T19:24:42 <arubi> then the input itself can't exist in the utxo set
248 2017-10-01T19:24:49 <arubi> which is the database of spendable outputs
249 2017-10-01T19:24:51 <djdjjj> come to think of it, this is probably not needed since this validation work of those previous inputs is already done since it's already included in a block
250 2017-10-01T19:24:58 <arubi> :)
251 2017-10-01T19:25:51 <djdjjj> oh so this utxo set is a global one? Every node knows all the UTXOs on the chain?
252 2017-10-01T19:26:47 <arubi> yes, it's what all full nodes agree on
253 2017-10-01T19:27:01 <djdjjj> makes sense now, thanks :)
254 2017-10-01T19:27:04 <arubi> yw
255 2017-10-01T19:27:51 <djdjjj> so there's that invariant: a UTXO's txinputs cannot be UTXO themselves
256 2017-10-01T19:29:09 <arubi> oh sure, because they haven't been created yet when you try to spend them
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259 2017-10-01T19:30:29 <djdjjj> otherwise that would be double-spending, wouldn't it?
260 2017-10-01T19:31:00 <arubi> not saying it can't happen, but you'd need to break sha256 to set it up
261 2017-10-01T19:31:37 <arubi> you're trying to set up a tx that when redeeming an input has the same txid as that input. sounds possible, but not with current tech :)
262 2017-10-01T19:32:20 <djdjjj> ah right
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264 2017-10-01T19:34:00 <djdjjj> I didn't knew that UTXO database is part of the consensus protocol btw. I thought only the proof-of-work chain was part of it
265 2017-10-01T19:35:17 <arubi> right the utxo is the grand thing everyone agrees on because everybody follows the same consensus rules
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267 2017-10-01T19:36:01 <djdjjj> I'm confused by these answers however that state that each node computes the UTXO set on its own https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/49393/is-the-utxo-set-computed-from-scratch-by-new-full-nodes
268 2017-10-01T19:37:01 <arubi> each node build their own view of what the utxo set is
269 2017-10-01T19:37:16 <arubi> but since everybody run the same rules, they will eventually agree
270 2017-10-01T19:37:30 <arubi> they might disagree sometimes, but it converges very quickly
271 2017-10-01T19:38:00 <djdjjj> ok I get it. So by looking at the UTXO set you can effectively compute how much BTC exists right now?
272 2017-10-01T19:38:15 <arubi> yep
273 2017-10-01T19:39:05 <arubi> there's a specific call in bitcoin core, 'gettxoutsetinfo' that does that
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277 2017-10-01T19:47:04 <djdjjj> re. my initial question, someone replied with a slightly different answer than yours I think: https://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinBeginners/comments/73nmjr/technical_question_why_is_the_redeemers_pubkey_is/
278 2017-10-01T19:47:46 <arubi> which answer do you mean?
279 2017-10-01T19:48:29 <arubi> the address isn't playing a part in anything. addresses are not part of the actual protocol. the previous txid:index points to a scriptpubkey
280 2017-10-01T19:48:52 <arubi> in case it's p2pkh (send to address), it's obvious what should be the script spending it
281 2017-10-01T19:49:30 <arubi> at signing time, that scriptpubkey is signed, but it's redundant. it was already hashed as part of the input's txid itself
282 2017-10-01T19:50:03 <arubi> it already exist in sighash, there's no need to explicitly put it in there again, but now I'm remembering op_codeseparator
283 2017-10-01T19:50:05 <djdjjj> my mistake then, I was talking about validation time, not signing time.
284 2017-10-01T19:50:44 <arubi> so actually djdjjj if we didn't have op_codeseparator, I'd be right, but we do and for some special cases, you do need the script signed too
285 2017-10-01T19:51:20 <arubi> validation is the same. you know the utxo, you know the scriptpubkey required to spend it
286 2017-10-01T19:52:12 <djdjjj> I guess my confusion comes from the fact that I thought that addresses were just the public keys
287 2017-10-01T19:52:24 * djdjjj does some more reading...
288 2017-10-01T19:53:01 <arubi> addresses are just strings that when you tell a wallet to "send to them", it actually sends to a standard scriptpubkey that has the public key's hash instead of the public key itself
289 2017-10-01T19:53:55 <arubi> to redeem it, in the spending transaction, you provide the public key itself, and a valid signature. so the previous tx's scriptpubkey is executed with these two as inputs
290 2017-10-01T19:54:03 <djdjjj> so address is a string representation of the hashed value of a public key?
291 2017-10-01T19:54:24 <arubi> right, and some other non interesting things. mainly the pubkey's hash
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293 2017-10-01T19:55:42 <djdjjj> so only the redeemer knows his/her own public key?
294 2017-10-01T19:55:50 <arubi> yes
295 2017-10-01T19:56:00 <djdjjj> the other peers only know his/her hashed keys (ie. addresses)
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297 2017-10-01T19:56:24 <arubi> right, and to prove ownership of that key, the owner has to sign the hash of the key
298 2017-10-01T19:56:37 <arubi> which is just as hard as signing the key itself
299 2017-10-01T19:56:43 <arubi> (or easy if you have the private key)
300 2017-10-01T19:57:39 <arubi> that's why I initially said you could just use the previous txid, because it already contains the hash of the pubkey, but special singing conditions require the actual executed script too
301 2017-10-01T19:57:45 <djdjjj> so p2pkh is the simpler format AFAICT, and the most common one
302 2017-10-01T19:58:04 <arubi> it's most common yes, hopefully not for long as p2wpkh replaces it :)
303 2017-10-01T19:58:47 <arubi> (same idea, just a more efficient script)
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306 2017-10-01T20:02:32 <djdjjj> it's clear a few paragraphs below in the wiki: "A Bitcoin address is only a hash, so the sender can't provide a full public key in scriptPubKey. When redeeming coins that have been sent to a Bitcoin address, the recipient provides both the signature and the public key. The script verifies that the provided public key does hash to the hash in scriptPubKey, and then it also checks the signature against the public key."
307 2017-10-01T20:02:50 <djdjjj> it all makes sense now :)
308 2017-10-01T20:02:54 <djdjjj> thanks a lot
309 2017-10-01T20:02:59 <arubi> the paragraph is lacking really
310 2017-10-01T20:03:22 <djdjjj> x_x
311 2017-10-01T20:03:34 <djdjjj> in which way?
312 2017-10-01T20:03:38 <arubi> oh sorry, it does
313 2017-10-01T20:03:43 <arubi> "also checks the signature against the public key"
314 2017-10-01T20:03:48 <arubi> you're welcome :)
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316 2017-10-01T20:04:25 <arubi> I missed the last "and then.." at first
317 2017-10-01T20:06:04 <djdjjj> so the actual public keys are not visible in wallets users (they only see addresses) but are visible in full nodes
318 2017-10-01T20:06:45 <arubi> address owners can run 'ismine <address>' and see the pubkey, but usually well done wallets try to avoid letting the user handle any keys at all
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321 2017-10-01T20:07:33 <djdjjj> and the public keys in TXs appear only in the "scriptSig" part (talking about p2pkh addresses)
322 2017-10-01T20:07:40 <Sentineo> how did a p2pk addresslook like? was it the pubkey in base56? Or just plain?
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324 2017-10-01T20:08:48 <Sentineo> djdjjj: yes, only in scriptSig (or as I like the more descriptive name unlocking script)
325 2017-10-01T20:08:49 <arubi> djdjjj, right, not a part of the recorded transaction at all
326 2017-10-01T20:09:06 <arubi> Sentineo, there isn't an address for that. it's just a pubkey and checksig after
327 2017-10-01T20:09:36 <arubi> so sending to a pubkey would just be sending to a script "<pubkey> checksig"
328 2017-10-01T20:09:37 <Sentineo> ok, so historicaly base58 was cr3ated for p2pkh?
329 2017-10-01T20:09:47 <arubi> not base58 either, just hex pubkeys :)
330 2017-10-01T20:10:21 <Sentineo> are those still valid?
331 2017-10-01T20:10:28 <arubi> sure, and standard
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333 2017-10-01T20:10:30 <Sentineo> need to try on regt3st ;)
334 2017-10-01T20:10:33 <arubi> multisigs too
335 2017-10-01T20:10:44 <arubi> as bare scripts that is, not p2sh wrapped
336 2017-10-01T20:11:03 <Sentineo> yeah, remember those
337 2017-10-01T20:11:11 <Sentineo> been playing with them
338 2017-10-01T20:11:33 <arubi> miners used to pay themselves with a bare 1-of-1 multisig, weird, maybe to make the software count -20 sigops and have some safety margin for sigop count
339 2017-10-01T20:11:42 <djdjjj> so bare public keys are only used to verify the signature and to create addresses?
340 2017-10-01T20:11:45 <arubi> I don't know the reason. not sure if minres still do :)
341 2017-10-01T20:11:59 <arubi> and multisig scripts
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343 2017-10-01T20:12:24 <arubi> well these are wrapped in a hash themselves, so they're not bare, but you do interact with keys for that
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345 2017-10-01T20:13:19 <djdjjj> I see
346 2017-10-01T20:13:38 <djdjjj> so `scriptPubKey` is a little misleading name..
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349 2017-10-01T20:13:48 <arubi> scriptsig too
350 2017-10-01T20:14:01 <djdjjj> well that's kinda vague too yes
351 2017-10-01T20:14:23 <Sentineo> yep
352 2017-10-01T20:14:30 <Sentineo> well because it was mostly cod3
353 2017-10-01T20:14:31 <Sentineo> code
354 2017-10-01T20:14:32 <arubi> it's all because when these were made up, they had a bit different uses
355 2017-10-01T20:14:48 <Sentineo> yeah
356 2017-10-01T20:14:50 <djdjjj> as a sender, `scriptSig` contains my public key and my signature, and `scriptPubKey` contains the recipients hashed public key (ie. address)
357 2017-10-01T20:14:55 <arubi> scriptsig, you used to be able to execute scripts on there. you still can to some extent, but not very useful
358 2017-10-01T20:15:11 <arubi> scriptsig is the script that runs before the input's scriptpubkey us run
359 2017-10-01T20:15:34 <Sentineo> djdjjj: scriptSig js the unlocking script and scriptPubkey, the locking
360 2017-10-01T20:15:35 <arubi> right now, scriptsig is only confined to pushes of data, so the script just pushes stuff like pubkeys and sigs to the stack
361 2017-10-01T20:15:48 <arubi> and when the scriptpubkey runs, these are its inputs
362 2017-10-01T20:16:10 <Sentineo> djdjjj: so when you send something you lock it (givr the crypto puzzle)
363 2017-10-01T20:16:11 <arubi> so for a p2pkh, the inputs on the stack, put there by scriptsig would be the pubkey and signature
364 2017-10-01T20:17:03 <arubi> for a p2pk, it's only the signature (pubkey not recorded, but in sighash as previous scriptpubkey), for p2pkh it's both (hash not recorded, but in sighash as previous scriptpbukey)
365 2017-10-01T20:18:04 <Sentineo> djdjjj: and to spend it, you have to unlock it by providing the scriptSig.
366 2017-10-01T20:19:16 <Sentineo> djdjjj: read this and it will make more sense ... https://github.com/bitcoinbook/bitcoinbook/blob/second_edition/ch06.asciidoc
367 2017-10-01T20:20:17 <arubi> no! read http://enetium.com/resources/Bitcoin.pdf !
368 2017-10-01T20:20:56 <djdjjj> question: the `pubKey` in `scriptSig` is *my* public key, right?
369 2017-10-01T20:21:04 <djdjjj> (not the recipients)
370 2017-10-01T20:21:51 <arubi> yes, yours
371 2017-10-01T20:21:54 <arubi> the one redeeming
372 2017-10-01T20:22:08 <arubi> the recipient's is unknown yet :)
373 2017-10-01T20:22:15 <arubi> (sending to address, right)
374 2017-10-01T20:22:39 <djdjjj> I'm kinda confused by this: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction#Pay-to-PubkeyHash
375 2017-10-01T20:23:07 <arubi> specifically?
376 2017-10-01T20:23:09 <djdjjj> when the OP_EQUALVERIFY comes into play, it says that it compares `pubHashA` with `pubKeyHash`
377 2017-10-01T20:23:25 <arubi> yes, and fails the script if it isn't equal
378 2017-10-01T20:23:26 <djdjjj> why would those be equal? Isn't `pubHashA` _my_ hashed public key?
379 2017-10-01T20:23:44 <djdjjj> and `pubKeyHash` the address of the recipient?
380 2017-10-01T20:23:49 <arubi> yes, it's compared to the hash in the input's scriptpubkey txid:index
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382 2017-10-01T20:23:59 <arubi> no no, that pubkeyhash is in the outputs
383 2017-10-01T20:24:35 <arubi> things in scriptsig are input stuff, either scripts at redemption or previous scriptpubkey at signing time
384 2017-10-01T20:25:01 <arubi> look at page 29 in the pdf I linked
385 2017-10-01T20:25:23 <djdjjj> ah sorry I got it
386 2017-10-01T20:25:29 <arubi> oh alright
387 2017-10-01T20:25:31 <djdjjj> this is the whole process that checks that I'm the rightful owner
388 2017-10-01T20:25:32 <Sentineo> djdjjj: you have to concatenate scriptSig and scriptPubkey and lookmat it as one script
389 2017-10-01T20:25:39 <djdjjj> if the coins I'm trying to spend
390 2017-10-01T20:25:48 <Sentineo> djdjjj: if it returns true you transer bitckin ownership
391 2017-10-01T20:25:59 <arubi> ownership is checked by making you sign both the previous txid:index and the script being executed
392 2017-10-01T20:26:30 <djdjjj> I mean, that whole "checking process" described in that page refers only to "checking that I'm the owner of the UTXO's I'm trying to spend"
393 2017-10-01T20:26:52 <arubi> yes, that's what validation of transactions does basically
394 2017-10-01T20:26:53 <djdjjj> I thought that it was validating the whole transaction somehow (meaning involving the sender too)..
395 2017-10-01T20:26:58 <djdjjj> yes yes
396 2017-10-01T20:28:08 <djdjjj> so that `pubKeyHash` there actually refers to the `pubKeyHash` of a _UTXO_ that I'm redeeming, not the `pubKeyHash` that I'll send the coins to
397 2017-10-01T20:29:24 <arubi> yes that's right
398 2017-10-01T20:29:52 <djdjjj> that PDF is awesome btw
399 2017-10-01T20:29:54 <arubi> usually signers sign all the outputs in a transaction, but they always only sign their own input
400 2017-10-01T20:30:24 <arubi> they do sign other txid:index inputs though, just not scriptpubkeys
401 2017-10-01T20:30:41 <arubi> or sequences, you'll see :)
402 2017-10-01T20:54:57 <djdjjj> last one: which data are signed in the scriptSig signature part?
403 2017-10-01T20:55:29 <djdjjj> I guess it's a hash of the tx inputs themselves?
404 2017-10-01T20:56:36 <djdjjj> or the tx-to-be-created?
405 2017-10-01T20:58:47 <arubi> it's everything, prevtxs and current outputs
406 2017-10-01T20:59:28 <arubi> anything that isn't signed is free to change in flight by anyone, so it's pretty thorough if you don't use very exotic setups
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