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110 2017-11-02T13:39:24 <paulo_> hello
111 2017-11-02T13:39:39 <paulo_> does the client accept empty (coinbase-only) blocks?
112 2017-11-02T13:41:08 <arubi> of course
113 2017-11-02T13:42:09 <arubi> oh ghost43, did you manage eventually? invalidateblock and reconsiderblock are probably what you want
114 2017-11-02T13:42:25 <paulo_> I'm a 51% attacker who mines starting from an old block of height N. I mine only empty blocks and catch up with the main chain. Will this cause all transactions from height N to unconfirmed?
115 2017-11-02T13:42:33 <paulo_> *unconfirm
116 2017-11-02T13:43:28 <arubi> yes
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118 2017-11-02T13:44:33 <ghost43> arubi: thanks! I've only wanted to do this atm to test a certain behaviour of bitcoind, and ended up reading 2-3 source files instead :D
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120 2017-11-02T13:44:51 <arubi> hehe, I know exactly what you mean :)
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122 2017-11-02T13:45:43 <paulo_> arubi: okay. so let's say the mempool of all clients are full from all the unconfirmed transactions. A few transactions are booted out of the mempool. have I essentially reversed transactions?
123 2017-11-02T13:46:40 <arubi> why would transactions leave a mempool? also understand that there is no singular mempool. each node tracks its own
124 2017-11-02T13:47:08 <paulo_> arubi: the nodes prioritize transactions by feels when the mempool is full
125 2017-11-02T13:47:11 <paulo_> *fees
126 2017-11-02T13:47:53 <ghost43> he's essentially asking that if the local mempool size is 300 MB, and a reorg forces 1000 MB worth of txs out of the best chain, then are several 100 MBs of txs lost for most nodes
127 2017-11-02T13:48:13 <arubi> any tx that was in a block previously now becomes unconfirmed but is otherwise valid. unless you also double spend one of the old ones, all txs can get confirmed again
128 2017-11-02T13:48:31 <arubi> but yes, if an ancestor was lost entirely, I suppose you can say it's also reversed
129 2017-11-02T13:49:02 <paulo_> okay. there is no limitation as to how old a block I can mine from?
130 2017-11-02T13:49:22 <arubi> you can mine them all starting from block 1, included
131 2017-11-02T13:49:30 <arubi> block 0 is genesis and consensus
132 2017-11-02T13:49:32 <ghost43> paulo_: if even a single node has an enormously large max mempool configured, he can rebroadcast all txs to the whole network
133 2017-11-02T13:50:38 <paulo_> I can keep extending a side chain if I wanted to?
134 2017-11-02T13:50:51 <ghost43> no one can stop you from doing that
135 2017-11-02T13:51:02 <arubi> right, but it's better for your pocket to extend main chain
136 2017-11-02T13:51:11 <paulo_> and the network will accept this as a side chain?
137 2017-11-02T13:51:29 <arubi> not unless it's the same length
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139 2017-11-02T13:51:38 <ghost43> the network won't care much, unless you catch up and overtake the best chain
140 2017-11-02T13:52:17 <ghost43> they won't download your blocks and after some time probably the headers either
141 2017-11-02T13:52:59 <arubi> (or more) you're competing against difficulty. headers are enough to know if it's the longest chain or not by difficulty
142 2017-11-02T13:54:21 <paulo_> "they won't download your blocks and after some time probably the headers either" - at which point, exactly, will the side chain be ignored?
143 2017-11-02T13:55:25 <arubi> paulo_, you'll be sending the block headers to your peers, and headers are enough to tell the total work done on that chain of blocks
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145 2017-11-02T13:55:45 <arubi> if it's less than the best chain we know about, there's no reason for us to download those blocks past the fork
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148 2017-11-02T14:10:43 <paulo_> so eventually, If I keep mining the side chain, it's difficulty will go lower. and the client will ignore lower difficulty blocks?
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150 2017-11-02T14:13:01 <arubi> they're checking for total work done, it's both length and total work
151 2017-11-02T14:14:39 <paulo_> I'm trying to understand when it's safe to ignore a side chain, at the same time preventing a network fork.
152 2017-11-02T14:16:59 <arubi> a node will follow the block it heard about first. if it hears about another valid one for the current height, it'll just keep it but still follow its current one. if it hears about a better chain it'll switch to it but still keep it's previous one
153 2017-11-02T14:17:29 <arubi> you said you're going to start from very early, so you'll need to catch up until at least the current height to be considered by currently synced nodes'
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155 2017-11-02T14:21:57 <paulo_> "if it hears about a better chain it'll switch to it but still keep it's previous one" - and the client will save side chain blocks, until the side chain's difficulty decreases?
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157 2017-11-02T14:23:48 <arubi> I don't know exactly, but if there are two competing forks with the same difficulty I think it's best to keep track of them both
158 2017-11-02T14:25:12 <paulo_> I'd want to save new side chain blocks, just in case it becomes the main chain. But at the same time, I don't want to be spammed by extensions to old sidechains.
159 2017-11-02T14:25:36 <arubi> right, that's the reasoning I believe
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163 2017-11-02T14:28:48 <paulo_> what is "total work done"?
164 2017-11-02T14:30:26 <paulo_> i know that hashes need to be lower than the target as POW, but I don't understand how they can be totaled
165 2017-11-02T14:30:58 <arubi> each 2016 blocks is a retarget, and you sum up the work done in each of these periods
166 2017-11-02T14:31:13 <arubi> 1 work is one hash256
167 2017-11-02T14:31:42 <arubi> well, approximately right, large numbers and all
168 2017-11-02T14:34:52 <paulo_> hmmm.
169 2017-11-02T14:35:38 <arubi> paulo_, at each of these periods a new target is calculated, and miners commit to that new target in a field in the block header
170 2017-11-02T14:36:12 <arubi> so it's easy to just sum these all up as you look at the headers. it doesn't matter what the exact hash of the block was in a period, all blocks are treated as the same work
171 2017-11-02T14:37:05 <arubi> all blocks in a period*, so what I mean is, a block's work is known by the bits fields in the block header
172 2017-11-02T14:39:19 <paulo_> so side chains are tagged as ignored during retargets?
173 2017-11-02T14:40:35 <arubi> I don't know exactly the threshold to ignore blocks outside our chain, but I'm guessing that if the block is in a shorter chain than ours, then we don't really need it
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175 2017-11-02T14:41:35 <paulo_> okay. I'm trying to figure out what exactly "shorter" is.
176 2017-11-02T14:41:44 <arubi> less work
177 2017-11-02T14:47:32 <paulo_> you look at the target to determine work, right?
178 2017-11-02T14:49:48 <paulo_> I keep trying to extend a side chain, eventually it's difficul
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180 2017-11-02T14:51:09 <paulo_> I keep trying to extend a side chain, eventually its difficulty will decrease since i'll be doing it slower, hence less work. If there is less work compared to the main chain, further extensions to the side chain will be ignored. Is that right?
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182 2017-11-02T14:55:50 <arubi> yes, that's what I think
183 2017-11-02T14:56:30 <arubi> I mean, just extending some low diff chain and broadcasting it will be a successful attack if nodes would default to keep it all
184 2017-11-02T14:58:56 <paulo_> coinbase transactions are spendable after 100 confirmations, I guess it's safe to assume that after 100 blocks, it's considered permanent
185 2017-11-02T15:00:13 <paulo_> i mean no need to save sidechains older than 100 blocks
186 2017-11-02T15:01:32 <eck> also consider that if your sidechain has a lower difficulty target than the main chain, by definition that means that you're mining blocks slowly, which makes it hard to catch up even just in terms of block height
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214 2017-11-02T16:45:57 <devrandom> hi. I have a message stuck in the bitcoin-dev mailing list for a couple of days (titled "Introducing a POW through..."). any pointers on how to get it released?
215 2017-11-02T16:46:48 <devrandom> I meant to say "in the bitcoin-dev moderaton queue"
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231 2017-11-02T18:28:50 <puchu> hi
232 2017-11-02T18:29:13 <puchu> how can i manually rebroadcast a transaction from the qt client?
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234 2017-11-02T18:30:53 <execute> what's happening to bitcoin testnet?
235 2017-11-02T18:33:48 <wumpus> puchu: right click, copy transaction data, go to debug console, type sendrawtransaction <paste>
236 2017-11-02T18:34:05 <wumpus> (so right click in the transaction list on the transaction you want to send)
237 2017-11-02T18:34:22 <wumpus> you can also paste the raw hex into e.g. blockchain.info/pushtx or similar
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239 2017-11-02T18:42:50 <puchu> wumpus: thanks
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247 2017-11-02T19:46:04 <jonasschnelli> puchu: there are also standalone dependency free push clients
248 2017-11-02T19:46:16 <jonasschnelli> https://github.com/laanwj/bitcoin-submittx
249 2017-11-02T19:46:25 <jonasschnelli> https://github.com/libbtc/libbtc
250 2017-11-02T19:52:10 <puchu> thanks
251 2017-11-02T19:52:47 <puchu> do you also know if its possible to replace a none confirmed transaction with a transacation that has a lower value created with the same UTX
252 2017-11-02T19:53:18 <puchu> @jonasschnelli
253 2017-11-02T19:53:24 <jonasschnelli> puchu: Most miners/nodes do only allow BIP125 replacements (replace by fee)
254 2017-11-02T19:53:28 <jonasschnelli> puchu: so the fee must be higher...
255 2017-11-02T19:53:34 <jonasschnelli> You can add an input though
256 2017-11-02T19:53:51 <jonasschnelli> You can lower the value of your change output as an example...
257 2017-11-02T19:53:53 <puchu> but the transaction value (neto) has to stay the same?
258 2017-11-02T19:53:56 <jonasschnelli> but the tx fee must rise
259 2017-11-02T19:54:31 <jonasschnelli> you can add input and outputs as long as the fee rises in the in BIP125 way
260 2017-11-02T19:54:42 <puchu> or is it possbile to decrease it?
261 2017-11-02T19:55:02 <jonasschnelli> puchu: the fee or the output value?
262 2017-11-02T19:55:08 <puchu> output value
263 2017-11-02T19:55:45 <jonasschnelli> You can reduce the output value... sure. That will result in increasing the fee
264 2017-11-02T19:55:57 <puchu> i broadcasted it multiple times but it doesnt show up on any blockexploerer
265 2017-11-02T19:56:29 <puchu> no i mean i sent for exmaple 1BTC with 0.001BTC fee and replace it with the same UTX0 but with 0.5BTC+0.002BTC fee
266 2017-11-02T19:57:02 <jonasschnelli> Have you signaled BIP125 RBF in your original TX?
267 2017-11-02T19:57:03 <jonasschnelli> Otherwise your doing a double-spend
268 2017-11-02T19:57:24 <puchu> nope. yeah i do a double spend but i want the later one to get confirmed
269 2017-11-02T19:57:34 <puchu> to get the first marked as none valid
270 2017-11-02T19:58:00 <jonasschnelli> I see.... that's non-trivial.. maybe have a look at petertodd's double-spend tool (never used, .. don't ask me for further support)
271 2017-11-02T19:58:09 <puchu> is the second transaction broadcasted at all?
272 2017-11-02T19:58:15 <puchu> i mean relayed
273 2017-11-02T19:58:43 <jonasschnelli> Almost all nodes do only accept "replacemenets" if the original transaction has signaled BIP125 RBF.
274 2017-11-02T19:58:47 <puchu> usig raw-tx broadcast tools give me an error
275 2017-11-02T19:58:56 <puchu> there was no RBF
276 2017-11-02T19:59:12 <puchu> and RBF only allows to increase the fee nothing else, the other parts have to stay the same
277 2017-11-02T19:59:20 <puchu> as the name says replace by fee
278 2017-11-02T19:59:22 <jonasschnelli> no
279 2017-11-02T19:59:43 <puchu> really?
280 2017-11-02T20:00:00 <jonasschnelli> BIP125 RBF does allow to add inputs and outputs as long as your fee increases (in a certain way)
281 2017-11-02T20:00:07 <jonasschnelli> Have a look at BIP125
282 2017-11-02T20:00:27 <jonasschnelli> There is another way to get your tx unbstuck...
283 2017-11-02T20:00:29 <jonasschnelli> By CPFP
284 2017-11-02T20:00:43 <jonasschnelli> Not sure if applicatble to your TX
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286 2017-11-02T20:01:52 <jonasschnelli> You can spend the unspend output of your "stuck" tx in another tx that pays a "high fee"
287 2017-11-02T20:02:16 <jonasschnelli> (only possible if one of the outputs belongs to a key owned by you)
288 2017-11-02T20:02:52 <puchu> yeah i have one change key
289 2017-11-02T20:03:08 <puchu> so would have to send this to another transaction
290 2017-11-02T20:03:17 <puchu> transaction/address
291 2017-11-02T20:05:15 <jonasschnelli> yeah... just do a follow up tx with the output of the stuck tx... make sure you pay a high fee
292 2017-11-02T20:05:25 <puchu> high = ?
293 2017-11-02T20:05:37 <jonasschnelli> heh... difficult question
294 2017-11-02T20:05:44 <puchu> current the client recommends 0.002btc/kb
295 2017-11-02T20:05:49 <puchu> is 0.003 high?
296 2017-11-02T20:06:28 <jonasschnelli> haven't checked my estimator... just double the value if you want a simple answer
297 2017-11-02T20:06:44 <puchu> okya i jsut wanted to go with 4 :D
298 2017-11-02T20:07:05 <jonasschnelli> a miner must then be interested to collect that fee,... but can only if he also includes your original tx in the new block (==CPFP)
299 2017-11-02T20:09:43 <puchu> okay thanks i tried it , if it doenst make it i will end up with the original transaction
300 2017-11-02T20:10:43 <puchu> the mempool is completly crouded
301 2017-11-02T20:16:28 <puchu> jonasschnelli: thanks for your help
302 2017-11-02T20:17:23 <puchu> jonasschnelli: i know what a CPFP is but i never tried it. maybe i should create a third one with the UTX0 from the last CPFP :)
303 2017-11-02T20:17:36 <puchu> at least blockchain doesnt show my tx
304 2017-11-02T20:17:47 <puchu> blockchain.info
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308 2017-11-02T20:51:43 <jonasschnelli> puchu: maybe give us (or PM) your txid(s)?
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310 2017-11-02T21:02:49 <puchu> the first one is confimed :(
311 2017-11-02T21:03:09 <puchu> it is as it should be ;)
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