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129 2017-11-23T12:43:59 <garit> Hi. Few questions about future of bitcoin: when i send small transactions, does it increase the space this coins will need in a blockchain later? Does this increase everyones requirement for space in blockchain? Can collect some btc dust and send it to other person's address and make all his coins unusable(due to extreme fees)?
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167 2017-11-23T15:56:58 <cluelessperson> garit: Hi there. Right now bitcoin *is* gaining popularity faster than the technology has developed, but it is coming along. It has just resulted a "fee" market.
168 2017-11-23T15:58:54 <cluelessperson> garit: so transaction fees can be a bit high at times, but still affordable for the most part. Each transaction's data is stored in the blockchain. The typical transaction is ~246 bytes, and no, sending dust to someone doesn't effect their ability to spend.
169 2017-11-23T15:59:41 <cluelessperson> When you spend bitcoin, you actually refer to "inputs" and where to send them. They can easily choose to just not send the dust
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194 2017-11-23T18:21:48 <achow101> anyone know what's up with this: https://bitcoin.org/en/posts/bitcoin-knots?
195 2017-11-23T18:22:02 <achow101> luke-jr: do you know (it has to do with knots)
196 2017-11-23T18:31:14 <arubi> interesting. I think it's a good decision
197 2017-11-23T18:31:40 <achow101> arubi: well it was made without any discussion (no PR, no review, etc) and cobra did not sign the commit as is usual practice
198 2017-11-23T18:31:56 <achow101> it was also just reverted
199 2017-11-23T18:32:10 <mlz> probably cobra is being moody again
200 2017-11-23T18:32:12 <arubi> the plot thickens :)
201 2017-11-23T18:32:44 <arubi> fwiw I like knots. been using it for a while and the cutting-edge-ness is nice
202 2017-11-23T18:34:15 <mlz> me too
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206 2017-11-23T18:50:16 <buZz> how can i export and import P2WSH addreses?
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209 2017-11-23T18:55:51 <arubi> with importaddress, import the script with p2sh set to false
210 2017-11-23T18:56:18 <arubi> but really it's easier to just import all relevant stuff with importmulti and importpubkey
211 2017-11-23T18:56:55 <buZz> how would you prepare an export for importmulti then?
212 2017-11-23T18:57:30 <buZz> oh wait, i see
213 2017-11-23T18:57:34 <buZz> ty :)
214 2017-11-23T18:57:39 <arubi> ah cool :)
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219 2017-11-23T19:14:48 <luke-jr> achow101: I'm aware of it to a limited extent. doing thanksgiving stuff now tho..
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223 2017-11-23T19:37:28 <garit> cluelessperson: https://charts.bitcoin.com/chart/transaction-size says at 2009 transaction size was about 200B, and now it is about 700B. But this includes the fact of exponential btc growth, that reduces the number of btc needs to be sent
224 2017-11-23T19:39:08 <garit> lets consider this metric: amount of btc that can be sent in one block. initially we would be able to fill the block with 50 btc transactions, later as users would split btc, we would include smaller parts, like 1 btc per source, and later we would send transactions where each source is only a few mBTC
225 2017-11-23T19:39:59 <garit> am i right that such splitting will make each transaction bigger, and would reduce total possible btc transferring capacity of a network?
226 2017-11-23T19:40:43 <arubi> the amount in a transaction is always 8 bytes
227 2017-11-23T19:40:52 <arubi> zero or 21 million btc
228 2017-11-23T19:42:08 <arubi> you just took the absolute minimum at 2009 when folks used bare pubkeys and the redemption would be that ^, but they also had to be paying to a p2pkh script too :)
229 2017-11-23T19:42:16 <arubi> very specific, pretty useless
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231 2017-11-23T19:42:49 <arubi> the same tx in p2pkh today is.. 226 bytes I think? segwit makes it a lot smaller
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233 2017-11-23T19:43:01 <arubi> well, less weight
234 2017-11-23T19:44:55 <arubi> anyway, dinner. bitcoin.com is a website promoting all sorts of scams, so I wouldn't trust its charts for anything
235 2017-11-23T19:45:51 <garit> arubi: transaction size depends on your source of btc. If you mined them all - you will spend 30B per 50 btc. But if you gained them as 1mBtC pieces, you will spend 30B per 0.001BTC, right?
236 2017-11-23T19:46:31 <garit> https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/1195/how-to-calculate-transaction-size-before-sending-legacy-non-segwit-p2pkh-p2sh#3011 - about 40 bytes per each transaction input
237 2017-11-23T19:46:43 <arubi> segwit makes it so consolidating two small utxos is as efficient in payment as breaking one to two in non segwit scripts
238 2017-11-23T19:47:32 <arubi> the witness byte's weight being 1/4 of a non witness one is exactly the reason for that ^
239 2017-11-23T19:47:45 <garit> But what are the chances that a person will get the two sequential parts to consolidate them? (they have to have some requirement to be united, right?)
240 2017-11-23T19:48:03 <arubi> no
241 2017-11-23T19:48:08 <arubi> it's just like a normal payment
242 2017-11-23T19:49:24 <garit> so you can get a btc dust in few satoshi per source, unite them all regardless from where they came, and send as one transaction with small requirement to transaction size?
243 2017-11-23T19:50:04 <arubi> yes, the more you consolidate inputs, the larger the effect becomes because you save up on the transaction skeleton bytes too
244 2017-11-23T19:51:23 <garit> This would break the history of this coins, is it like creating a nee coins? Since now all users will point to a nee origin of this coins
245 2017-11-23T19:51:28 <garit> new*
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255 2017-11-23T20:29:09 <arubi> garit, no, it's just a normal consolidation of inputs like we've been doing since 2009
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259 2017-11-23T20:35:27 <garit> I see, this solves this problem i think. Thanks
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261 2017-11-23T20:36:39 <arubi> np
262 2017-11-23T20:36:57 <garit> (I thought by some reason that each coin stores it origin. But if it only stores it last 'place', and origin can be checked by the blockchain, this helps
263 2017-11-23T20:38:33 <arubi> ah, sure. validation and coming up with the valid utxo set is exactly that
264 2017-11-23T20:39:46 <arubi> in the utxo set are coins with the last output still unspent, so if you validated the whole chain up until the last block, then you can just see a new transaction out of the blue and know for sure if it's spending a valid unspent output or not
265 2017-11-23T20:41:18 <garit> so everyone just checks 1 block deep, expecting that people from previous block checked 1 block deep too, and thus everything should be checked
266 2017-11-23T20:42:54 <arubi> no, you check it all for yourself
267 2017-11-23T20:44:10 <arubi> not each time, you just keep track
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289 2017-11-23T23:16:57 <firelegend> Hi all. I wanted to legitimately ask what are the future plans of Bitcoin to improve transactions per second and fees?
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300 2017-11-23T23:44:59 <garit> firelegend: fees are market controlled, for devs to be able to change them, devs would need to significantly increase the block size, and that's unlikely(it will increase the propagation time of new blocks above the generation time of a new block)
301 2017-11-23T23:46:15 <firelegend> Right, then what about blocks?
302 2017-11-23T23:46:29 <firelegend> More transactions per second(i.e more per block)
303 2017-11-23T23:46:54 <garit> same for transactions per second, it also need an increase of block size . But it cant be easily done
304 2017-11-23T23:47:35 <garit> firelegend: China has about 75% of miners, and china's miners are against the block increase because their internet is slower (that's what i heared)
305 2017-11-23T23:47:49 <firelegend> yeah I dont like that bit there
306 2017-11-23T23:48:04 <firelegend> Ever since I saw the hash rate chart and that big dip
307 2017-11-23T23:48:12 <firelegend> it instilled some unease in me
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309 2017-11-23T23:48:57 <firelegend> Has there been any research on compression?
310 2017-11-23T23:49:10 <firelegend> Compress the blocks(this means an overhead) but it saves bandwidth
311 2017-11-23T23:50:06 <garit> firelegend: block are almost like random data, afaik. you cant know in advance even approximately who will send and where and how much, so i doubt it will help
312 2017-11-23T23:50:52 <garit> you can compress only poorly composed data, that is sparse (like text), btc transactions are already quite good (dense, few repeating data)
313 2017-11-23T23:50:59 <firelegend> garit: If chinese miners are opposed to bigger blocks, why did they launch an altcoin? Seems weird behaviour
314 2017-11-23T23:51:33 <garit> probably they arent all the same person and have different opinions, i dont know about altcoin
315 2017-11-23T23:52:28 <firelegend> garit: I was referring to the asic boost version of bitcoin, aka cash
316 2017-11-23T23:53:54 <garit> i dont know about it, sorry
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