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100 2017-11-27T08:12:27 <midnightmagic> garit: incorrect. premise wrong. conclusion wrong. Pointless FUD.
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102 2017-11-27T08:14:05 <garit> And what is right?
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107 2017-11-27T08:24:56 <midnightmagic> garit: Eliminating the idea that it is a waste from your thoughts to begin with. :-/
108 2017-11-27T08:25:15 <garit> What is a waste?
109 2017-11-27T08:25:46 <garit> I need to know to what context you are referring to =)
110 2017-11-27T08:26:06 <midnightmagic> you were complaining about the expense in terms of energy
111 2017-11-27T08:26:07 <garit> Last convo was about mempool flush
112 2017-11-27T08:26:13 <midnightmagic> ah
113 2017-11-27T08:27:08 <garit> midnightmagic: lets consider visa - tx cost is about 0.1$, btc tx cost is 10$, difference is a waste
114 2017-11-27T08:27:33 <garit> (as if - can be done better, not as if totally useless)
115 2017-11-27T08:27:56 <midnightmagic> garit: Also, the idea that spreading the elctricity usage to the transactions on a per-transaction basis is a misleading notion. It is not per-tx. It is per-block. And the security is ensured via that electricity consumption.
116 2017-11-27T08:28:32 <garit> midnightmagic: block is limited in capacity. So i can do this, because block capacity is unlikely to change any time soon
117 2017-11-27T08:29:50 <midnightmagic> garit: No, because it focuses on something for which the electricity is not being consumed and misleads people into thinking about it in terms of transactions instead of **blocks**.
118 2017-11-27T08:30:12 <garit> about security: bitcoin give X^1 security. Its even worse than the merkle puzzles with X^2 security. So, that having spent 10 units of energy opponent needs to spend 10 units of energy. In merkle puzzles (worst crypto i can imagine) for 10 spent units of power opponent would spend 100
119 2017-11-27T08:30:33 <garit> midnightmagic: transactions are meaningless without blocks anyway
120 2017-11-27T08:30:36 <midnightmagic> uh.
121 2017-11-27T08:30:39 <midnightmagic> no.
122 2017-11-27T08:31:04 <midnightmagic> but, meh, I guess marinate in your misconceptions..?
123 2017-11-27T08:31:05 <garit> Uh. Yes. Thats how transactions properly occur with double spending protection
124 2017-11-27T08:31:51 <midnightmagic> I'm, saying "no" to earlier comments.
125 2017-11-27T08:32:31 <garit> Block capacity? I was reading that miners are against in increase in size
126 2017-11-27T08:32:36 <garit> it increase*
127 2017-11-27T08:33:05 <midnightmagic> no. your insistence of ignoring the block when considering the elecrticity consumption
128 2017-11-27T08:33:32 <garit> Any example when counting energy per tx is misleading?
129 2017-11-27T08:33:50 <rubensayshi> I dont think it's misleading, it's incorrect to compare it to visa though
130 2017-11-27T08:34:15 <midnightmagic> Yes; both because a tx is variable size; and because it misleads new users who don't know what you're talking about.
131 2017-11-27T08:34:19 <rubensayshi> "bitcoin is about making the transaction they dont want you to make"
132 2017-11-27T08:34:20 <garit> rubensayshi: we dont have many working alternative money system to select from, though
133 2017-11-27T08:34:39 <rubensayshi> different properties, different purposes, so different costs
134 2017-11-27T08:34:54 <midnightmagic> Also, that is not what Bitcoin is about. :-/
135 2017-11-27T08:35:01 <garit> midnightmagic: average tx is like that. And especially for new users,to not to deal with blocks , per tx is easier
136 2017-11-27T08:35:02 <midnightmagic> Brutal.
137 2017-11-27T08:35:11 <rubensayshi> the price to do a trustless USD payment is ... infinite because it's impossible
138 2017-11-27T08:35:41 <garit> rubensayshi: you need it at the btc-fiat transfer anyway
139 2017-11-27T08:35:42 <rubensayshi> digital that is, cash works fine :P
140 2017-11-27T08:35:54 <midnightmagic> garit: Average tx over a long time tends towards X. But some jerks like Ver make huge tx for political purposes which have nothing to do with average; neither is the segwit capacity being cleanly utilized right now.
141 2017-11-27T08:36:54 <midnightmagic> so again, no point in considering it since the number is off right now from where it might be. we have to wait until the SW becomes standard in all wallets.
142 2017-11-27T08:37:17 <rubensayshi> weak argument
143 2017-11-27T08:37:25 <rubensayshi> atm the bitcoin network processes X txs per second
144 2017-11-27T08:37:26 <garit> It wont change the situation more than 4 times (sigwit), afaik
145 2017-11-27T08:37:31 <rubensayshi> which means we send X power per second
146 2017-11-27T08:37:38 <rubensayshi> power / TXs = power per TX
147 2017-11-27T08:38:11 <rubensayshi> you can't weight in future improvements xD
148 2017-11-27T08:38:23 <garit> afaik btc works at about 300MWt and at 4 tx/sec
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151 2017-11-27T08:41:43 <garit> midnightmagic: problem is, energy cost per tx is more dependant on btc cost (volatile in hundred times) than on sigwit (improves 4 times)
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153 2017-11-27T08:42:29 <garit> if btc will rise in price in 100 times, miners will buy more hardware and use everything they can, rising energy consumption by about the same factor
154 2017-11-27T08:42:56 <rubensayshi> which means bitcoin will be more resistant to attacks
155 2017-11-27T08:43:28 <garit> at the cost of dying planet, using x^1 security level
156 2017-11-27T08:44:27 <rubensayshi> most power used for bitcoin mining is cheap / otherwise unused hydro power
157 2017-11-27T08:44:48 <rubensayshi> but yea, security comes at a price
158 2017-11-27T08:44:49 <garit> rubensayshi: btc already uses about 0.1% of world's energy. It can only rise 100-1000 times more, until all the energy will be used for it
159 2017-11-27T08:45:29 <rubensayshi> if the market thinks that is worth it, why not xD
160 2017-11-27T08:46:04 <rubensayshi> none of us can predict the future
161 2017-11-27T08:46:08 <midnightmagic> The weak argument is the nature of the implication of X watts per tx. The premise ignores basically the entire purpose of the energy consiumption to begin with and fails to even compare it with other, extremely wasteful industries, fails to consider the actual carbon footprint of the energy consumed; fails to consider basically any of the actually interesting arguments.
162 2017-11-27T08:46:20 <rubensayshi> maybe combined with the 1000x power increase someone else in the world also finds an awesome new power source :P
163 2017-11-27T08:46:36 <rubensayshi> no mindnight, he's right in that sense
164 2017-11-27T08:46:46 <rubensayshi> we burn X power to process Y transactions per second
165 2017-11-27T08:47:02 <rubensayshi> it makes sense to divide the power by how many TXs we're processing
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167 2017-11-27T08:47:19 <garit> midnightmagic: 75% of miners are in china. China uses 40% world's coal. So i can assume that heavy-on-coal country uses coal for this too
168 2017-11-27T08:47:24 <midnightmagic> It is a misleading premise. It ignores the other stuff; the other stuff is more important.
169 2017-11-27T08:47:29 <midnightmagic> garit: No, even that logic is a fail.
170 2017-11-27T08:48:08 <garit> midnightmagic: fine. I dpnt even discuss co2. Just kwh
171 2017-11-27T08:48:21 <rubensayshi> what it ignores is that bitcoin shouldn't be compared to visa, it's decentralized, it will always be a lesser version of visa if you're simply comparing by the properties of fiat
172 2017-11-27T08:48:30 <garit> system uses X power. And makes Y tx
173 2017-11-27T08:48:43 <midnightmagic> Uh.. No, discuss CO2. I'm saying you're wrong becase you don't know where all the mines are located so you don't know what's hydroelectric.
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176 2017-11-27T08:49:22 <garit> midnightmagic: i can simply say 'i dont know where hydros are in china'
177 2017-11-27T08:49:36 <garit> this wont make your side of argument better either
178 2017-11-27T08:49:40 <rubensayshi> I've only visisted 1 mine in my life, but it was hydro, 100% score ;)
179 2017-11-27T08:50:03 <garit> yay, big statistical collection of data =)
180 2017-11-27T08:50:20 <rubensayshi> but in all seriousness, cheap electricity is generally found where there is excess of power
181 2017-11-27T08:51:02 <garit> Or lack of environmental control
182 2017-11-27T08:51:42 <garit> anyway, for now btc's energy usage is okay
183 2017-11-27T08:51:51 <garit> but it won't be if price will be higher
184 2017-11-27T08:53:35 <garit> If btc would contain all earth's money, it would also need all earths energy. There should be a better way than this
185 2017-11-27T08:54:51 <rubensayshi> but it doesnt make sense for bitcoin to contain all earth's money
186 2017-11-27T08:55:00 <rubensayshi> it's not designed to be
187 2017-11-27T08:55:56 <garit> What is it designed for?
188 2017-11-27T08:56:01 <midnightmagic> i'm not going to help you refine your rationale about it anymore.
189 2017-11-27T08:56:17 <garit> because some people take it seriously as if btc is a new gold suitable for mass use
190 2017-11-27T08:57:33 <garit> midnightmagic: my position isnt unique i suppose. Helping me you would also help btc to be seen in a proper way.
191 2017-11-27T08:58:24 <rubensayshi> garit: why would you want to buy your groceries with BTC instead of fiat?
192 2017-11-27T08:58:38 <rubensayshi> excluding vanity reasons
193 2017-11-27T08:58:46 <garit> rubensayshi: because btc-to-fiat is always a pain
194 2017-11-27T08:59:04 <rubensayshi> then don't convert all your fiat to BTC to begin with xD
195 2017-11-27T08:59:32 <garit> But muh investments!!111
196 2017-11-27T08:59:59 <rubensayshi> buying groceries with your investments is a bit weird isn't it ?
197 2017-11-27T09:00:11 <garit> (people do buy btc expecting growth and consider this 'an investment')
198 2017-11-27T09:00:27 <rubensayshi> maybe you're a special case, but I think most ppl seperate their investments from their day to day spendings
199 2017-11-27T09:00:44 <midnightmagic> The ultimate solution is that the question is invalid. :-( The counter-argument is to simply find a comparable industry and calculate its wastage.
200 2017-11-27T09:01:13 <garit> rubensayshi: even with just 1 tx per day, btc can support a million people or so
201 2017-11-27T09:01:33 <garit> groceries level lf currency would need 10 tx/day per person i suppose
202 2017-11-27T09:02:32 <garit> s/ if / of /
203 2017-11-27T09:02:36 <rubensayshi> my point is, there's no reason to use BTC (which comes at a price, both for you as for the world as you've been trying to point out) over fiat for such a thing
204 2017-11-27T09:03:33 <rubensayshi> BTC is for when you want to make TXs that you are not allowed to make
205 2017-11-27T09:04:23 <rubensayshi> or that are just very hard to make through fiat systems
206 2017-11-27T09:04:30 <garit> Ah, okay. That could be much less often
207 2017-11-27T09:04:39 <rubensayshi> but there's no reason why it would replace groceries
208 2017-11-27T09:05:03 <rubensayshi> so when a currency has a different purpose it needs different properties and it will have different costs
209 2017-11-27T09:05:04 <garit> Not even about groceries, but stuff like salary (once a month)
210 2017-11-27T09:05:30 <garit> or bonds/pension/dividents
211 2017-11-27T09:06:18 <midnightmagic> The benefit of the BTC is the reason why the energy expenditure is justifiable, even where it is using less-than-carbon-neutral production methods.
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327 2017-11-27T17:30:41 <garit> Hi. Bitcoin core wallet client did use password encrypted wallets and used many iteration of encryption (about 1 million), I suspect that's why i cant open this wallet. Any ideas what client can still do it? (Version was about 8, of client)
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353 2017-11-27T19:15:48 <mlz> garit, you're using bitcoin core version 8?
354 2017-11-27T19:42:56 <garit> I think that was last version i did use with a wallet
355 2017-11-27T19:43:50 <garit> wallet was encrypted, with ~1second time and ~300k iterations. New wallets dont ask for password when i replace ~/.bitcoin/wallet.dat
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367 2017-11-27T20:59:20 <eck> are there any wireshark modules that know how to parse the bitcoin peer-to-peer protocol?
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374 2017-11-27T21:37:31 <eck> ah, i fixed my encoding, and now it's working
375 2017-11-27T21:37:38 <eck> neat
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