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  52 2017-12-07T02:44:17  <ponzibanker> Anyone here familiar with when a validating node updates the mempool?
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  57 2017-12-07T03:18:57  <phantomcircuit> ponzibanker, define updates
  58 2017-12-07T03:20:34  <ponzibanker> phantomcircuit: I think I’m clear that the mempool is updated by a full node when it receives a block and validates it, the transactions within that block or removed from the mempool…if that is correct, my issue is what happens when there’s a fork in the chain.
  59 2017-12-07T03:23:09  <ponzibanker> phantomcircuit: So if the full node receives A-B-C with C being a valid block and removes the transactions from the mempool, what happens if the next block is A-B-D? That is, when does the full node validate the D block and then if it’s valid hang on to it until the blocks are reconciled? And if so, does the node try to remove the tx in D from the mempool as well?
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  92 2017-12-07T04:23:12  <BGL> this is so frustrating, all i want to do is not have to re-download the entire blockchain again, i've moved the blockchain data off to a diff drive (imagine that) created a hard symbolic link for/to the blocks folder which seems to be working fine, but when i launch bitcoin-qt it's saying error initializing block database and if i want to rebuild, is this at all related to the chainstate folder? i really don't want to have t
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  95 2017-12-07T04:25:30  <cncr04s> windows?
  96 2017-12-07T04:25:33  <cncr04s> that won't work
  97 2017-12-07T04:25:44  <cncr04s> linux, sure
  98 2017-12-07T04:26:04  <BGL> i just had a site in front of me saying it does
  99 2017-12-07T04:26:12  <BGL> have you tried it on windows?
 100 2017-12-07T04:26:16  <cncr04s> i have
 101 2017-12-07T04:26:21  <cncr04s> its been a while though
 102 2017-12-07T04:26:35  <cncr04s> I just got a 2tb ssd
 103 2017-12-07T04:26:44  <cncr04s> dont gotta worry
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 106 2017-12-07T04:48:33  <BGL> i don't have $600 to spend on a 2tb SSD so i can store a blockchain on it, simply because i'd like to store my wallet on the ssd (which i have) and the blockchain elsewhere
 107 2017-12-07T04:53:03  <cncr04s> well
 108 2017-12-07T04:53:09  <cncr04s> try creating a partition for the blocks
 109 2017-12-07T04:53:17  <cncr04s> and mount it in the blocks folder
 110 2017-12-07T04:53:25  <cncr04s> instread of giving it a drive
 111 2017-12-07T04:53:28  <cncr04s> that may work
 112 2017-12-07T04:54:10  <cncr04s> probably will work
 113 2017-12-07T04:54:23  <cncr04s> since thats what I do with my linux daemons
 114 2017-12-07T05:01:35  <BGL> it took me an hour+ to copy the blockchain data to this other drive, in order to even try that, i'd have to erase to the drive & re-copy everything back again just to see if it workws
 115 2017-12-07T05:03:31  *** iv3c has quit IRC
 116 2017-12-07T05:06:11  <cncr04s> well, thats life =D
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 118 2017-12-07T05:09:54  <BGL> lol
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 121 2017-12-07T05:11:32  <BGL> does anyone else have any ideas that they know for sure will work?
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 125 2017-12-07T05:14:57  <luke-jr> BGL: mount --bind /some/path /destination
 126 2017-12-07T05:15:07  <luke-jr> although a symlink should work there
 127 2017-12-07T05:16:02  <BGL> windows
 128 2017-12-07T05:16:11  <luke-jr> oh, lol
 129 2017-12-07T05:16:13  <luke-jr> glwt
 130 2017-12-07T05:16:16  <luke-jr> why use a backdoored OS?
 131 2017-12-07T05:16:28  <BGL> because it doesn't come with struts
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 139 2017-12-07T05:55:27  <mlz> glwt?
 140 2017-12-07T05:55:34  <mlz> oh nvm
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 651 2017-12-07T15:56:01  <deego> Blockchain explorer shows x btc going to public address PUB1. I know the corresponding private key PRIV1. If I importprivkey PRIV1 - and rescan - in an unrelated wallet W, will my balance go up by precisely x?  Or could there be "missing inputs"?   (assuming that W doesn't already know PRIV1)
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 654 2017-12-07T16:00:07  <deego> In reality, my wallet doesn't seem to discover the transaction that gave x btc to key PUB1 :(. I did a full -rescan
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 657 2017-12-07T16:02:30  <deego> Could a wallet/blocks/ get corrupted somehow to lose a particular transaction? is that even possible?
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 667 2017-12-07T16:36:14  <gevs> hello people! from this thread: https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/9046/why-is-my-transaction-not-getting-confirmed-and-what-can-i-do-about-it
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 669 2017-12-07T16:36:30  <gevs> a answer mentions "run bitcoin core with -zapwallettxes"
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 671 2017-12-07T16:36:55  <gevs> since i broadcast the transaction over the smartbit API - i guess i cant do that, right?
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 673 2017-12-07T16:39:00  <gevs> >  The only resolutions are to confirm or invalidate (by double spending) the transaction. Double spending is not a danger in this situation because you are the sender, not the receiver.
 674 2017-12-07T16:39:14  <gevs> can I cancel my transaction this way ?
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 684 2017-12-07T16:51:19  <gevs> ok never mind, i think the CPFP approach talks more to me :P more to learn haha double spend is buh
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 693 2017-12-07T17:12:40  <Sentineo> gevs: electrum has an esy click option for cpfp
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 695 2017-12-07T17:18:09  <gevs> that would indeed apply i think
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 698 2017-12-07T17:19:30  <Sentineo> if you have a change back you can use it
 699 2017-12-07T17:19:30  <gevs> i did a pretty weird transaction taking out some USDT using a OP_RETURN but - the output i would use for the CPFP is from a omnicore wallet which doesnt need multisig
 700 2017-12-07T17:19:34  <gevs> now i already coded the child pays for parent thingy in my little cli :D
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 702 2017-12-07T17:20:20  <gevs> currently fighting because before i worked with P2SH for the multisig and now this transaction im creating uses P2PKH
 703 2017-12-07T17:20:36  <gevs> but thats just more stuff i'll learn on the way :)
 704 2017-12-07T17:20:38  <Sentineo> ah I remember you were talking with arubi about it here
 705 2017-12-07T17:20:45  <Sentineo> so still strugling?
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 707 2017-12-07T17:20:52  <gevs> ill look into the electrum cpfp definitely - maybe a quick help
 708 2017-12-07T17:21:12  <Sentineo> I have learnt it today :)
 709 2017-12-07T17:21:18  <Sentineo> that electrum supports it
 710 2017-12-07T17:21:23  <gevs> nono - the usdt is sent back - but i defined a too small fee :(
 711 2017-12-07T17:21:23  <gevs> being too careful during tests... then for the real life thing i specified a too small fee :(
 712 2017-12-07T17:21:24  <gevs> so its limbo dancing now
 713 2017-12-07T17:21:25  <gevs> haha
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 715 2017-12-07T17:21:30  <Sentineo> tried on testnet, easy to use, no hand crafting of TXes
 716 2017-12-07T17:21:47  <Sentineo> gevs: did you use RBF though
 717 2017-12-07T17:21:48  <Sentineo> ?
 718 2017-12-07T17:21:56  <gevs> but the transaction is valid and omni also declares it as unconfirmed so im positive the USDT+CoPay will be out of the way once this transaction is confirmed
 719 2017-12-07T17:22:02  <gevs> no
 720 2017-12-07T17:22:12  <gevs> arubi mentioned that my transaction did not signal RBF
 721 2017-12-07T17:22:17  <gevs> is that what you mean?
 722 2017-12-07T17:22:21  <ne0futur> hi all, 210k unconfirmed transactions on https://blockchain.info/unconfirmed-transactions , anyone have some explanation ?
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 725 2017-12-07T17:24:16  <Sentineo> gevs: yep, ok than CPFP is the only option
 726 2017-12-07T17:24:21  <Sentineo> gevs: what fee did you use?
 727 2017-12-07T17:24:31  <Sentineo> if it is not that urgent I would perhaps wait
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 733 2017-12-07T17:28:22  <gevs> it was kind of urgent x] i worked so hard to reproduce the copay multisig approach, etc xD
 734 2017-12-07T17:29:11  <gevs> and then now, its hurting on that last little step of confirmation haha
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 759 2017-12-07T18:43:46  <arubi> ugh.  what's my last message here please?
 760 2017-12-07T18:46:18  <dansmith_btc> arubi, there were none
 761 2017-12-07T18:46:46  <arubi> thanks dansmith_btc.  well I was asking who's timewarping testnet :)
 762 2017-12-07T18:47:03  <Sentineo> is there an attack on it?
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 764 2017-12-07T18:47:42  <arubi> not an attack, just using the 20 minute difficulty 1 rule to mine blocks hehe
 765 2017-12-07T18:48:02  <arubi> I was just about to do it, but I see someone else is already running, so was wondering
 766 2017-12-07T18:54:51  <Sentineo> ah yeah
 767 2017-12-07T18:55:11  <Sentineo> I tought bitcoind saves mempool between reboots
 768 2017-12-07T18:55:16  <Sentineo> but does not seem so
 769 2017-12-07T18:55:25  <Sentineo> I have 146 txes now
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 771 2017-12-07T18:55:45  <arubi> there's a flag to make it not load mempool
 772 2017-12-07T18:55:57  <arubi> it's also in a file now, intuitively mempool.dat
 773 2017-12-07T18:56:13  <Sentineo> I want it to load it
 774 2017-12-07T18:56:23  <Sentineo> just it does not seem to
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 776 2017-12-07T18:56:38  <arubi> maybe they got in a block in between?
 777 2017-12-07T18:56:39  <Sentineo> but am lagging a few blcosk
 778 2017-12-07T18:56:53  <arubi> oh, not sure
 779 2017-12-07T18:56:55  <Sentineo> the backlog was like few thousand txes
 780 2017-12-07T18:56:58  <Sentineo> now I see 146
 781 2017-12-07T18:57:42  <Sentineo> poor node stopped processing new blocks as it was handling RPC calls
 782 2017-12-07T18:57:51  <arubi> rip
 783 2017-12-07T18:58:03  <arubi> but also not sure that should happen :)
 784 2017-12-07T18:58:18  <arubi> if you can recreate it, it's worth opening an issue on github
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 786 2017-12-07T19:01:02  <Sentineo> it happens a lot on this odroid
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 788 2017-12-07T19:02:26  <arubi> are you using the release binaries?
 789 2017-12-07T19:02:39  <Sentineo> no compiled it myself
 790 2017-12-07T19:03:08  <Sentineo> with arm optimisation for libsecpp256k1
 791 2017-12-07T19:03:20  <Sentineo> it happens less now, that I built it with it
 792 2017-12-07T19:04:08  <arubi> oic
 793 2017-12-07T19:04:39  <Sentineo> the blockchain is on an usb stick
 794 2017-12-07T19:04:45  <Sentineo> to might be that as well
 795 2017-12-07T19:04:50  <arubi> oof
 796 2017-12-07T19:04:52  <Sentineo> do not know how to measure it
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 802 2017-12-07T19:09:11  <jheathco> the majority of txs currently on btc are likely to/from exchanges from private wallets, and other large p2p value transfers.  i see how lightning can help use cases related to retail and between exchanges, etc.. but i don't see how it will help alleviate the bulk of the current tx activity. mempool is sitting at close to 200mb and >200k txs.  can someone explain?
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 809 2017-12-07T19:22:50  <arubi> segwit, lightning, coinjoin, signature aggregation..  all things that can be done to make transactions smaller
 810 2017-12-07T19:23:14  <arubi> really it's only about using as much space as possible for inputs and outputs.  the rest is just noise
 811 2017-12-07T19:23:31  <arubi> eventually there's going to be a limit
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 814 2017-12-07T19:25:17  <arubi> we're not using signature aggregation yet, that's in the future.  the three others are live, but underused
 815 2017-12-07T19:25:24  <jheathco> arubi: was that supposed to answer the question?
 816 2017-12-07T19:25:43  <jheathco> i'm a bitcoin hodler and supporter, so don't take my skepticism the wrong way
 817 2017-12-07T19:25:59  <arubi> never did, just not sure on what's to explain
 818 2017-12-07T19:26:48  <arubi> there's lots of use, we see that sometimes.  technology to enable more in\outs is underused, so we're lagging a bit more that we could be
 819 2017-12-07T19:26:50  <jheathco> the mempool/tx backlog is an obvious issue - people seem to be touting lightning as one of the potential solutions - i just don't see it based on what the likely tx use cases are as very little (if any) is being used for payments/services atm
 820 2017-12-07T19:27:39  <Sentineo> you can have a channel to your exchange as well
 821 2017-12-07T19:27:46  <jheathco> i see lightning helping with tx activity related to retail/etc. in the future
 822 2017-12-07T19:27:50  <Sentineo> what makes you think people would not choose it in case it is cheaper?
 823 2017-12-07T19:28:01  <arubi> there's safe way to enable unlimited capacity in bitcoin, so we're stuck with whatever we can use.  problem is, what we do have is heavily underused
 824 2017-12-07T19:28:10  <Sentineo> it would me much cheaper for the exchange and they could gain fees
 825 2017-12-07T19:28:26  <jheathco> sentineo, because we urge users to keep their funds in their private wallets... not to open a channel
 826 2017-12-07T19:28:42  <arubi> a channel isn't for /all/ your funds
 827 2017-12-07T19:28:51  <jheathco> i know that... that's my point
 828 2017-12-07T19:29:00  <adiabat> jheathco: funds in a channel with an exchange is much better than funds on an exchange as they work today
 829 2017-12-07T19:29:02  <jheathco> the amount you'd want to trade you'd have to top up on the channel, or pull from the channel
 830 2017-12-07T19:29:13  <adiabat> if the exchange gets hacked and you have a channel with them, you lose nothing
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 832 2017-12-07T19:29:31  <arubi> exactly, it's much better than sending bit by bit so you don't lose it all
 833 2017-12-07T19:29:41  <jheathco> adiabat: agreed, but funds on an exchange aren't affecting the tx backlog anyway... so i don't see the point
 834 2017-12-07T19:29:49  <Sentineo> you need an amount to open the channel, than it is very cheap
 835 2017-12-07T19:30:03  <Sentineo> jheathco: you have to get those funds there somehow
 836 2017-12-07T19:30:07  <jheathco> i'm not talking about safety or where to keep bitcoin (on exchange versus in channel), i'm talking about the backlog/mempool
 837 2017-12-07T19:30:08  <arubi> funds to and from exchanges are probably a huge part
 838 2017-12-07T19:30:09  <Sentineo> so it is effecting it
 839 2017-12-07T19:30:23  <adiabat> it might help in that people would be more comfortable leaving a channel open instead of sending coins to exchanges a few at a time
 840 2017-12-07T19:30:52  <arubi> jheathco, even with all improvements being used to their full extent, there will /still/ be backlog
 841 2017-12-07T19:31:07  <jheathco> ok say you have 100 btc... you want to trade actively trade 10 of it... you either put the 10 on an exchange or put the 10 into a lightning channel. obviously the latter is "safer", but both cases only affect mempool when pushing/pulling funds
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 843 2017-12-07T19:31:42  <adiabat> I mean ... if you make the same # of transactions, then sure
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 845 2017-12-07T19:31:53  <adiabat> the idea is that people who have all 100 on their computer
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 847 2017-12-07T19:32:19  <adiabat> and send 1 coin every time they want to sell, those people will switch to having a channel with 10 coins with the exchange
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 849 2017-12-07T19:32:51  <jheathco> i just think it's misleading then to act as if lightning is going to help considerably, even when adopted, with mempool/backlog.  if 80% of tx activity on-chain now was retail/payment based, i'd agree.... but it's not
 850 2017-12-07T19:33:02  <Sentineo> jheathco: I am not sure you need to send 10 for the channel, you can send more later, or not?
 851 2017-12-07T19:33:20  <jheathco> sentineo: sure, but then you're posting another tx on-chain to top-up the channel
 852 2017-12-07T19:33:35  <arubi> huh? why open a channel for the bare minimum?
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 854 2017-12-07T19:33:46  <jheathco> i just don't see how we alleviate mempool issues without scaling via blocksize increase
 855 2017-12-07T19:33:53  <jheathco> ....arubi: not suggesting that
 856 2017-12-07T19:33:56  <arubi> if you believe 10 is not enough, open for 50
 857 2017-12-07T19:34:06  <arubi> stop after 10 if it does end up being enough
 858 2017-12-07T19:34:08  <jheathco> arubi: responding to sentineo
 859 2017-12-07T19:34:29  <arubi> you're suggesting a channel should be funded as much as sending individual transactions
 860 2017-12-07T19:34:50  <arubi> that's not the point.  if you're funding as much as you'd normally just send, you're inefficient
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 862 2017-12-07T19:35:12  <jheathco> no, i'm not
 863 2017-12-07T19:35:20  <Sentineo> arubi: so should it be funded with more?
 864 2017-12-07T19:35:23  <jheathco> i'm comparing to current activity with an exchange
 865 2017-12-07T19:35:45  <arubi> yes, with an exchange I can use lightning to open a channel with 100 bitcoins, and only risk 0.00001 at each send
 866 2017-12-07T19:35:55  <arubi> and there would be 2 transactions on chain
 867 2017-12-07T19:36:05  <jheathco> you're talking about risk
 868 2017-12-07T19:36:10  <jheathco> i'm talking about mempool issues
 869 2017-12-07T19:36:14  <jheathco> i agree with you re: risk
 870 2017-12-07T19:36:22  <arubi> okay, rephrase the issue please
 871 2017-12-07T19:36:31  <Sentineo> but if it is sent via a channel, no mempool issue that is what arubi is saying
 872 2017-12-07T19:36:31  <jheathco> how does this help the mempool using lightning?
 873 2017-12-07T19:36:32  <arubi> seems like every counter point is met "but that's not 'mempool'"
 874 2017-12-07T19:37:02  <Sentineo> txes sent via lightning do not get to the mempool
 875 2017-12-07T19:37:10  <Sentineo> ignoring seting up the channel
 876 2017-12-07T19:37:31  <jheathco> i thought i explained it clearly.  you have 100 btc, you want to trade or "play with" 10... option 1) open lightning channel for 10 btc, option 2) send 10 btc to exchange
 877 2017-12-07T19:37:44  <arubi> if you want to send once, you just send
 878 2017-12-07T19:37:49  <jheathco> option 1) obviously much safer re: risk, but both affect mempool equally
 879 2017-12-07T19:37:54  <arubi> what's the fix for the minimal case?
 880 2017-12-07T19:37:59  <arubi> use segwit
 881 2017-12-07T19:38:00  <adiabat> option 3) send 1 to the exchnage
 882 2017-12-07T19:38:07  <adiabat> because it's too dangerous to send all 10
 883 2017-12-07T19:38:19  <adiabat> which is what people do
 884 2017-12-07T19:38:29  <Sentineo> yep
 885 2017-12-07T19:38:39  <jheathco> *facepalm* ok, i guess i'm only making sense to myself
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 887 2017-12-07T19:38:55  <jheathco> i've made it clear i'm not talking about risk/danger/safety
 888 2017-12-07T19:39:02  <adiabat> OK then sure, there's no point
 889 2017-12-07T19:39:10  <jheathco> i see the obvious benefits of lightning
 890 2017-12-07T19:39:17  <jheathco> i'm talking about fees/mempool issues
 891 2017-12-07T19:39:23  <Sentineo> well ok consider this
 892 2017-12-07T19:39:26  <adiabat> if you're going to do everything without worrying about risk, just have everything on coinbase...
 893 2017-12-07T19:39:27  <jheathco> apparently those aren't important?
 894 2017-12-07T19:39:27  <Sentineo> I have 5 exchange accounts
 895 2017-12-07T19:39:52  <adiabat> then can make transactions with everyone else on coinbase without touching the blockchain
 896 2017-12-07T19:40:03  <Sentineo> funding 5 vs opening one channel and using the fact that there might be channels between them
 897 2017-12-07T19:40:20  <Sentineo> this scenario would make less stress on mempool? (I think yes) but not sure
 898 2017-12-07T19:40:24  <jheathco> adiabat: ok? that's not what txs are likely happening now anyhow
 899 2017-12-07T19:40:27  <adiabat> it's very scalable and fast, but is trusted... the whole point of lightning was to try and prevent that from happening
 900 2017-12-07T19:40:51  <jheathco> sentineo: yes, that would help, but you think most users are trading on 5 exchanges?
 901 2017-12-07T19:40:56  <adiabat> people do internal coinbase transactions, as they did with gox, etc
 902 2017-12-07T19:41:03  <jheathco> let's look at the *current* typical use cases
 903 2017-12-07T19:41:23  <jheathco> adiabat: yes, and internal coinbase txs aren't hitting blockchain anyway
 904 2017-12-07T19:41:38  <jheathco> (at least i don't think they are?)
 905 2017-12-07T19:41:43  <jheathco> but regardless, there are likely very few
 906 2017-12-07T19:41:46  <Sentineo> jheathco: yes I think it is pretty common to have at least 2  exchanges
 907 2017-12-07T19:41:51  <jheathco> most of the tx activity right now is related to trading and to/from exchanges
 908 2017-12-07T19:41:57  <adiabat> right, so compared to everyone just having coins on an exchange, lightning doesn't help with scalability, it helps with security / trust
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 910 2017-12-07T19:42:09  <jheathco> adiabat: agree 100%
 911 2017-12-07T19:42:12  <Sentineo> jheathco: did you make any measurements, using most of, bla bla as if you know ...
 912 2017-12-07T19:42:13  <jheathco> and i'm stoked on that
 913 2017-12-07T19:42:16  <adiabat> compared with every trade happening on-chain, it helps with scalability
 914 2017-12-07T19:42:21  <jheathco> but i have major concerns for not increasing blocksize
 915 2017-12-07T19:42:29  <adiabat> but... people don't do all trades on-chain already, because it's too expensive
 916 2017-12-07T19:42:54  <adiabat> I agree that 2MB is too small
 917 2017-12-07T19:42:58  <jheathco> sentineo: no, so i realize i could be wrong... i'm using common sense.. who is accepting bitcoin for payment for goods/services now? and if they are, who in their right minds would be doing that with crazy fees?
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 919 2017-12-07T19:43:32  <jheathco> adiabat: also agreed
 920 2017-12-07T19:43:56  <Sentineo> it is 4MB
 921 2017-12-07T19:44:08  <adiabat> 4MB... kindof / sortof...
 922 2017-12-07T19:44:17  <jheathco> sentineo: it's < 2mb with the most optimistic calculations afaik
 923 2017-12-07T19:44:41  <jheathco> regardless, it needs to be higher
 924 2017-12-07T19:44:46  <jheathco> imho
 925 2017-12-07T19:44:48  <adiabat> funny thing is I thing signature aggregation will actually lower the weights of blocks
 926 2017-12-07T19:44:58  <Sentineo> I am afraid of the consequences it will cause
 927 2017-12-07T19:45:03  <adiabat> thing is, hard forks are... pretty tough
 928 2017-12-07T19:45:15  <adiabat> gotta convince everyone to run new code
 929 2017-12-07T19:45:21  <jheathco> i disagree, but if they are, we could do extension blocks
 930 2017-12-07T19:45:42  <adiabat> I think some kind of bulletproof extention block would be really cool
 931 2017-12-07T19:45:49  <jheathco> i think if core came out in support of increasing block size, it would be a breeze.... i just don't see that happening
 932 2017-12-07T19:45:51  <Sentineo> the solution will perhaps lie in the combination of all
 933 2017-12-07T19:45:56  <mlz> hey antpool still mines empty blocks, why is that?
 934 2017-12-07T19:46:14  <mlz> if jihan is so concerned about blksize, why still mining empty blocks?
 935 2017-12-07T19:46:26  <adiabat> "core" isn't really a thing.  people who work on it argue with each other all the time
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 937 2017-12-07T19:46:37  <jheathco> mlz: there are reasons and it has nothing to do with him trying to increase the mempool
 938 2017-12-07T19:46:49  <mlz> oh really?
 939 2017-12-07T19:46:52  <jheathco> adiabat: i know... i'm just generalizing
 940 2017-12-07T19:47:20  <adiabat> sure if most / all of the developers had some extention block thing and agreed on it, I think most people would use it
 941 2017-12-07T19:47:32  <adiabat> That may happen, but probably not for a year or two
 942 2017-12-07T19:48:39  <jheathco> luckily bitcoin is riding on its brand equity (amongst other things) so the shift to alts hasn't been as swift as many feared
 943 2017-12-07T19:49:03  <jheathco> so i just hope it has enough time until we get to some serious scaling solution (assuming the community supports it)
 944 2017-12-07T19:49:10  <esotericnonsense> jheathco: that and people aren't muppets
 945 2017-12-07T19:49:18  <adiabat> it's not like alts have better ideas...
 946 2017-12-07T19:49:36  <jheathco> esotericnonsense: not sure what you mean by that
 947 2017-12-07T19:49:49  <esotericnonsense> moving to an alt means gaining a small, temporary increase in throughput
 948 2017-12-07T19:50:17  <jheathco> adiabat: agree... the idea is simply increasing block size ... it's not a "better" idea since it's already been the longest proposed solution
 949 2017-12-07T19:50:37  <jheathco> esotericnonsense: small and temporary? where do you get that?
 950 2017-12-07T19:50:47  <esotericnonsense> jheathco: so you use ltc instead of btc
 951 2017-12-07T19:50:54  <mlz> if/when almost every user uses segwit, exchanges/services use segwit, that will help, then LN comes in in full force, that will help, AND Schnorr becomes a thing for bitcoin, that will help even more
 952 2017-12-07T19:50:56  <esotericnonsense> okay, so the block size on ltc is currently higher than btc's
 953 2017-12-07T19:50:58  <jheathco> actually, we're not supposed to talk about alts regardless so i should probably shift away from that
 954 2017-12-07T19:51:03  <esotericnonsense> that's it
 955 2017-12-07T19:51:18  <esotericnonsense> sorry, not the block size; the interval hence throughput.
 956 2017-12-07T19:51:22  <jheathco> i don't want to use alts, i want to use btc -  i just want to see it scale
 957 2017-12-07T19:52:02  <mlz> btc CAN NOT scale on chain
 958 2017-12-07T19:52:30  <mlz> and if you make it scale on chain, it will becomes another paypal, so use the current Paypal now
 959 2017-12-07T19:52:31  <jheathco> uh... care to explain?
 960 2017-12-07T19:52:43  <esotericnonsense> increasing the block size is not scaling bitcoin
 961 2017-12-07T19:52:49  <esotericnonsense> as a matter of fact it's probably the opposite
 962 2017-12-07T19:52:52  <jheathco> ok
 963 2017-12-07T19:52:57  <jheathco> so i guess we can decrease blocksize
 964 2017-12-07T19:53:00  <esotericnonsense> a tiny portion of bitcoin 'owners' actually use bitcoin as it stands
 965 2017-12-07T19:53:03  <jheathco> and scale it more?
 966 2017-12-07T19:53:05  <jheathco> by that logic?
 967 2017-12-07T19:53:13  <mlz> jheathco, stop being a troll
 968 2017-12-07T19:53:16  <esotericnonsense> jheathco: very possibly, yes
 969 2017-12-07T19:53:25  <jheathco> mlz: so i'm a troll because i question your narrative?
 970 2017-12-07T19:54:03  <jheathco> jesus... i'm a bitcoin supporter and holder, and i can't question technical issues i see with it without being labeled a troll
 971 2017-12-07T19:54:09  <jheathco> this is one of the major problems with the community
 972 2017-12-07T19:54:23  <mlz> no, by you going around your "blocksize blahbla" narrative
 973 2017-12-07T19:54:35  <jheathco> mlz: then ignore me
 974 2017-12-07T19:54:36  <esotericnonsense> jheathco: it's mostly that there's a distinction between using bitcoin and 'owning' bitcoin, for lack of better terminology
 975 2017-12-07T19:54:47  <esotericnonsense> barely anyone actually takes part in the network as it stands
 976 2017-12-07T19:55:02  <jheathco> i agree
 977 2017-12-07T19:55:15  <esotericnonsense> increasing the block size substantially (sure, go and make it 2x or whatever, don't care) would make that worse
 978 2017-12-07T19:55:20  <jheathco> but we want to see that happen (which is one of the major hopes for lightning - retail payments, etc.)
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 980 2017-12-07T19:55:36  <jheathco> i agree
 981 2017-12-07T19:55:43  <jheathco> i'm not arguing for 1gb blocks like some due
 982 2017-12-07T19:55:44  <jheathco> do*
 983 2017-12-07T19:55:54  <esotericnonsense> the point is that LN (or a system like it) is not a broadcast network
 984 2017-12-07T19:56:09  <esotericnonsense> with the current amount of computational power the average person has, that's the only way to do it
 985 2017-12-07T19:56:09  <jheathco> yes
 986 2017-12-07T19:56:11  <jheathco> which is great
 987 2017-12-07T19:56:17  <jheathco> agree
 988 2017-12-07T19:56:54  <jheathco> i think the issue is we've become so polarized... it's either tiny blocks with lightning, or massive blocks and no l2
 989 2017-12-07T19:57:07  <jheathco> why not safely increase block size and use l2?
 990 2017-12-07T19:57:16  <esotericnonsense> that is almost certainly going to happen
 991 2017-12-07T19:57:27  <esotericnonsense> it's just that right now it's pretty much a pure bikeshed issue
 992 2017-12-07T19:57:43  <jheathco> that's unfortunate, but i hope you're right that it will happen (sooner than later)
 993 2017-12-07T19:57:49  <instagibbs> jheathco, was already increased once, users arent even using the new space yet
 994 2017-12-07T19:58:12  <esotericnonsense> obviously this is my view, but tx fees on the bitcoin network being 'high' is basically irrelevant right now
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 996 2017-12-07T19:58:15  <jheathco> instagibbs: they're using it whenever they can. that's very misleading for you to say
 997 2017-12-07T19:58:32  <esotericnonsense> whether they are $4 or $1 you're still not buying low value items with it, the window of 'reasonable things to spend it on' doesn't change much
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 999 2017-12-07T19:59:11  <esotericnonsense> so erring on the side of lower throughput / more bitcoin users/verifiers seems sensible to me given that
1000 2017-12-07T19:59:13  <jheathco> esotericnonsense: i agree, however a year or two ago i *was* buying some things with bitcoin
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1002 2017-12-07T19:59:24  <jheathco> i wouldn't now, and i agree that those use cases should be moved to l2
1003 2017-12-07T19:59:34  <esotericnonsense> the past few years was like an accident
1004 2017-12-07T19:59:41  <esotericnonsense> or a dream world or something
1005 2017-12-07T19:59:50  <esotericnonsense> it's like thinking about a time when you could drive cars about in central london with no traffic
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1007 2017-12-07T20:00:08  <esotericnonsense> i don't even know if that did exist, but if it did, it's obvious that it couldn't last unless you just didn't think about it
1008 2017-12-07T20:00:12  <jheathco> sure, but bitcoin worked *better* back then ;)
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1010 2017-12-07T20:00:21  <esotericnonsense> right, it worked better with fewer people
1011 2017-12-07T20:00:27  <jheathco> it's like having horseback now and dreaming of a time when we used cars
1012 2017-12-07T20:00:43  <esotericnonsense> i don't think that's the case, it's purely congestion
1013 2017-12-07T20:01:03  <esotericnonsense> just like dreaming of a time when fewer people owned cars
1014 2017-12-07T20:01:07  <jheathco> yep
1015 2017-12-07T20:01:11  <esotericnonsense> 10-20 years ago in the UK there was a lot less traffic and it was better (for those that owned cars)
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1017 2017-12-07T20:01:29  <jheathco> well, playing devils advocate... let's imagine the blocksize was set at 50kb back when satoshi set the limit
1018 2017-12-07T20:01:30  <esotericnonsense> but it only ever worked as an elitist thing
1019 2017-12-07T20:01:33  <esotericnonsense> and i'd argue it still does
1020 2017-12-07T20:01:37  <jheathco> do you think we'd be here now arguing to keep it at 50kb?
1021 2017-12-07T20:01:45  <instagibbs> the year will be 20XX and someone on IRC will be arguing for a small constant factor like it's the death of the system
1022 2017-12-07T20:01:48  <jheathco> and that increasing it is not a way (one way) to scale bitcoin?
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1024 2017-12-07T20:02:20  <Sentineo> you want to solve an exponential problem with linear fix
1025 2017-12-07T20:02:30  <Sentineo> does not sound right, block size alone is for sure not enough
1026 2017-12-07T20:02:34  <mlz> some people just can't get the fact that "increasing the blocksize will not scale bitcoin" it's too difficult for them to get it
1027 2017-12-07T20:02:36  <esotericnonsense> jheathco: i think that increasing the block size as a HF should come with other HF fixes
1028 2017-12-07T20:02:37  <jheathco> sentineo: nope, otherwise i'd be arguing against lightning
1029 2017-12-07T20:03:02  <jheathco> esotericnonsense: agree - so let's push for all of that
1030 2017-12-07T20:03:13  <esotericnonsense> and I also think it's kind of silly because to do it now will just require another one later and i don't think it's necessary now
1031 2017-12-07T20:03:39  <esotericnonsense> i dunno. it's like i have a 20 year old civic and i'm buying a tesla next year
1032 2017-12-07T20:03:53  <esotericnonsense> and i'm arguing with the wife about whether to rice it and put spoilers on it and shit
1033 2017-12-07T20:03:55  <esotericnonsense> it's just, i don't care
1034 2017-12-07T20:04:02  <mlz> how did pushing 2X work out for you and garzik, jheathco?
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1036 2017-12-07T20:04:27  <jheathco> mlz: why are you asking irrelevant questions that you already have an answer to, mlz?
1037 2017-12-07T20:04:32  <esotericnonsense> it's a non issue for me personally, i don't think it's broken, i think we need to deal with blocks being full
1038 2017-12-07T20:04:54  <esotericnonsense> it's a necessary part of the evolution of the system if we want to protect the coin cap
1039 2017-12-07T20:04:54  <jheathco> and by the way, i own a supplement business - i have NOTHING to gain from bitcoin other than my hopes for where the technology goes
1040 2017-12-07T20:04:57  <mlz> jheathco, it's irrelevant because you can't deny it's stupid to push for a HF
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1043 2017-12-07T20:05:23  <jheathco> mlz, hopefully you scream at the core devs that were suggesting for hard forked block size increases then a year or so ago?
1044 2017-12-07T20:07:04  <jheathco> there will have to be hfs in the future if bitcoin is to survive, and there is nothing wrong with that
1045 2017-12-07T20:07:40  <adiabat> "There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept." :)
1046 2017-12-07T20:07:44  <mlz> jheathco, huh?
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1050 2017-12-07T20:08:31  <mlz> jheathco, sure there might be necessary hf's in the future but i don't see you aim for that
1051 2017-12-07T20:08:41  <jheathco> ok, have to go work - enjoyed the chat
1052 2017-12-07T20:09:26  <jheathco> later all
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1191 2017-12-07T21:53:45  <MrBar> this info outdated? https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Getblocktemplate
1192 2017-12-07T21:54:12  <MrBar> 100 byte hard limit on coinbase tx?
1193 2017-12-07T21:55:33  <arubi> it's not "coinbase tx"
1194 2017-12-07T21:55:35  <arubi> it's "coinbase"
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1196 2017-12-07T21:56:19  <arubi> it's the data where an input script will usually be
1197 2017-12-07T21:56:30  <arubi> so, where currently there's block height
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1201 2017-12-07T22:05:09  <MrBar> input script?
1202 2017-12-07T22:05:33  <arubi> what's the question exactly?
1203 2017-12-07T22:06:14  <arubi> there's a script present in each input in a transaction, usually has signatures and pubkeys in it
1204 2017-12-07T22:06:24  <MrBar> when i get getrawtransaction with coinbase tx id it 201 bytes
1205 2017-12-07T22:06:46  <arubi> well, "coinbase" is just a part of that transaction
1206 2017-12-07T22:07:01  <arubi> the term "coinbase tx" is confusing
1207 2017-12-07T22:07:28  <MrBar> How to build coinbase transaction
1208 2017-12-07T22:07:38  <MrBar> head from doc
1209 2017-12-07T22:07:40  <arubi> in what sense?
1210 2017-12-07T22:08:09  <MrBar> question exactly abut coinbase tx
1211 2017-12-07T22:10:06  <MrBar> if coinbase data does not overflow the 100 bytes what the rest of tx?
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1213 2017-12-07T22:10:53  <arubi> what you'd usually find in a transaction outputs, version, locktime, amounts..
1214 2017-12-07T22:11:52  <arubi> the input encoding is the same, but the json shows up differently for these type of transactions so it seems like there's something special to it.  there's not.  just some specific "previous" txid and index
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1216 2017-12-07T22:12:54  <MrBar> hm
1217 2017-12-07T22:13:24  <MrBar> coinbase tx = coinbase data + outputs
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1219 2017-12-07T22:13:32  <MrBar> right?
1220 2017-12-07T22:14:03  <arubi> there's more to it that + outputs.  it's a transaction
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1222 2017-12-07T22:14:38  <arubi> s/that/than/
1223 2017-12-07T22:15:19  <MrBar> outputs+tx_witnesses+lock_time
1224 2017-12-07T22:15:21  <MrBar> ?
1225 2017-12-07T22:15:45  *** intcat has joined #bitcoin-dev
1226 2017-12-07T22:15:57  <arubi> what's the actual question?
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1231 2017-12-07T22:17:04  <MrBar> now clear, tnx
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1233 2017-12-07T22:25:01  <MrBar> blockexplorer.com sometimes show in coinbase tx  "Unparsed address [0] 0 BTC" as second output, this is site code problem? incompatibles with protocol?
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