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8 2018-03-31T00:17:48 <nmnkgl> Hi. I'm doing some research and I was wondering if http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/files/charts/software.html is still supported? Also to doublecheck what I've found on Internet: does it attempts to find *all* the nodes (both accessible for in connections and not)?
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25 2018-03-31T01:31:55 <ProfMac> Does the sequence number of coinbase have to be any particular value?
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28 2018-03-31T01:36:23 <midnightmagic> ProfMac: there's a script/asm disassembler thing which feeds output to the "asm" output of e.g. decoderawtransaction which can be helpful in doing it yourself with an external tool.
29 2018-03-31T01:37:26 <midnightmagic> ProfMac: that would be in the isvalid() chain of checks. *not* isstandard, but in the isvalid. If there isn't a limitation in the isvalid() then there isn't a sequence number requirement.
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33 2018-03-31T02:16:56 <echeveria> ProfMac: no.
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79 2018-03-31T06:30:42 <ProfMac> hex(301) == 0x12d; "fd2d01" is a sequence of bytes that head a 301 byte long CDataStream..
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82 2018-03-31T06:48:11 <arubi> that's varint for you :)
83 2018-03-31T06:49:45 <ProfMac> Well, I'm getting pretty close. Plopped a string I obtained from getrawtransaction into my code, pushed a JSON interpretation out, it matches up with what I know separately.
84 2018-03-31T06:50:44 <ProfMac> There is a quirk when I initialize a CDataStream from a hex stream, there are some extra length bytes. I just used strm.ignore(count), but nope, won't be that simple.
85 2018-03-31T06:51:12 <ProfMac> where are the varint's encoded, what do I grep for to read even more code?
86 2018-03-31T06:52:13 <arubi> "Variable-length integers: bytes are a MSB base-128 encoding of the number."
87 2018-03-31T06:52:16 <arubi> in serialize.h
88 2018-03-31T06:55:31 <ProfMac> I've been reading serialize.h all day. At least it's familiar territory.
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90 2018-03-31T06:57:48 <arubi> it's a simple encoding really. the comments are very good
91 2018-03-31T07:00:28 <ProfMac> Yes, I just read it. I really have to read deeper in serialize. I've captured the behavior I want in a new RPC command, I'm cleaning it up before I GitHub it for comment.
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93 2018-03-31T07:10:19 <ProfMac> anyone know the lowest block height that has stale blocks.
94 2018-03-31T07:13:17 <wumpus> I don't think anyone has a total picture of that. Stale blocks are very easy to generate at low block height, due to the historical low difficulty, so clients will ignore them to avoid DoS potential.
95 2018-03-31T07:14:31 <ProfMac> Yeah. My approach may cause some problems, but I'm gonna code it up and see how it works in my lab.
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97 2018-03-31T07:23:56 <ProfMac> DoS now, by sending blocks to low block height?
98 2018-03-31T07:24:21 <midnightmagic> I (hopefully) have an early view of stale/extinct/whatever blocks from my nodes' perspectives, assuming i managed to hang on to the block data properly.
99 2018-03-31T07:26:12 <ProfMac> I mined for about a year. I think I put my node online in early 2013, just when the takeoff from $20/BTE was starting. There may be lots of stales when the Batch 2 Avalons hit the network in about June '14.
100 2018-03-31T07:26:59 <midnightmagic> my nodes went online (originally) in late 2010.. but while I've been rabid about keeping old block data around, I did end up deleting much of it.
101 2018-03-31T07:27:19 <midnightmagic> I remember watching huge forks happening it was awesome
102 2018-03-31T07:27:30 <ProfMac> I seem to delete / loose data about a month before radical price drops in storage.
103 2018-03-31T07:28:35 <ProfMac> Any clue to the timeframe. I'm looking at blockchain.info now, they may be a resource, I don't know. I'm looking at block 292,532 on their site at the moment.
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192 2018-03-31T17:57:56 <ProfMac> Is there a well known Public ECDSA key that is used in a coinbase on the main chain?
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195 2018-03-31T17:59:53 <arubi> I'd be surprised if there was.. but why?
196 2018-03-31T17:59:55 <ProfMac> Oh, duh. Nevermind, I'm looking right at the one I want.
197 2018-03-31T18:01:07 <arubi> oh public key.. yea maybe
198 2018-03-31T18:03:20 <ProfMac> For various reasons, I am reading a coinbase in hex from getrawtransaction, recovering a txn into memory from that hex, then manipulating it. I was using Block 1 as my example, and it pays to address 12c6DSiU4Rq3P4ZxziKxzrL5LmMBrzjrJX. The PublicECDSA Key is right there in the getrawtransaction output, it starts with 0496B5
199 2018-03-31T18:03:59 <ProfMac> Oh, and a useful web page is at http://gobittest.appspot.com/Address
200 2018-03-31T18:04:01 <arubi> basically almost all coinbase txs pay to pubkey
201 2018-03-31T18:04:27 <arubi> the one at block 1 is satoshi's right :)
202 2018-03-31T18:04:40 <arubi> well, at least it's likely
203 2018-03-31T18:04:51 <ProfMac> Well, this is why I am working through the client code line-by-line. It's surprising how many misconceptions hit one in the head when doing that.
204 2018-03-31T18:05:24 <arubi> oh yes. I know exactly what you mean
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206 2018-03-31T18:06:01 <ProfMac> I assume so. Actually, I looked at the 1st 10,008 block and did some statistics on (blocktime-MedianPrevTime) and I assume all those blocks were mined in the same lab.
207 2018-03-31T18:06:27 <arubi> I'd be very surprised if that were true
208 2018-03-31T18:07:05 <arubi> we probably have folks right here in this channel who mined some of those
209 2018-03-31T18:10:17 <ProfMac> Here are some of the plots that I made related to those 10,008 blocks.
210 2018-03-31T18:10:20 <ProfMac> https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/115426745065196075335/album/6519521612516431713/6519521612265200578?authkey=CK2wi7Gd3uaRwwE
211 2018-03-31T18:11:26 <arubi> yea, but what makes you think they were all mined by the same party?
212 2018-03-31T18:12:24 <arubi> there was only one mining software back then, the same one everybody used - bitcoind
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214 2018-03-31T18:13:04 <ProfMac> 1. The distribution changes very soon after that block. 2. There are dead times, that show up as spikes in this graph, where no mining takes places for hours to days, 3. A person who has signed a recent message with a key used in a moderately early block claims to be the 2nd person to mine with Satoshi.
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216 2018-03-31T18:14:00 <satwo> Hello all. Is there a way to query the orphan pool in bitcoind? And does ZMQ fire a notification when an orphaned tx (or orphaned/stale block) is received from a peer?
217 2018-03-31T18:14:06 <ProfMac> I'm not on a quest to prove or disprove this, it is just a thought in the back of my mind as I look at the data.
218 2018-03-31T18:14:44 <ProfMac> I do wish people would call them stale and not orphan. Orphans don't have parents.
219 2018-03-31T18:15:00 <arubi> the only orphan is the genesis block :)
220 2018-03-31T18:15:04 <ProfMac> marooned would have been so much better nomenclature.
221 2018-03-31T18:15:19 <ProfMac> arubi, exactly.
222 2018-03-31T18:15:55 <satwo> I agree; it just seems that people commonly say "orphan" to mean "stale"
223 2018-03-31T18:16:00 <ProfMac> the code does call block which don't have their immediate ancestor on location at that node "orphans.."
224 2018-03-31T18:16:28 <ProfMac> They do. But I'm a professor and it is pretty innate to be really conservative about language.
225 2018-03-31T18:16:41 <arubi> satwo, you can use 'getchaintips' to see some blocks that are stales
226 2018-03-31T18:17:07 <ProfMac> oh yeah, we could be helpful. Welcome aboard.
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228 2018-03-31T18:17:49 <ProfMac> I think that even blockchain.info calls them orphans. Barren or childless would also work.
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230 2018-03-31T18:19:31 <ProfMac> So, to make some lab code that I am working on read cleaner, it would be really helpful if I could make "reservedkey" be the public key from block 1. My mind is numb from reading and grepping and awking. Anyone have any clue how to do this with minimal damage to the code?
231 2018-03-31T18:19:40 <satwo> ProfMac Indeed! Lack of semantic precision/accuracy is the cause of too much unnecessary confusion.
232 2018-03-31T18:20:15 <arubi> ProfMac, well there's generatetoaddress, but I'm not sure if it takes a pubkey as argument
233 2018-03-31T18:20:28 <ProfMac> I'm on it.
234 2018-03-31T18:20:41 <satwo> arubi thanks! I have used that a couple of times. Too bad it doesn't have all historical stale blocks but that's a minor issue.
235 2018-03-31T18:20:58 <arubi> it has the blocks your node knows about
236 2018-03-31T18:21:02 <arubi> the ones that were relayed to it
237 2018-03-31T18:21:05 <ProfMac> After decsdes of avoidance, I dived into awk this week. Boy I wish I had sooner.
238 2018-03-31T18:21:15 <arubi> obviously we can't just tell everybody about every stale block
239 2018-03-31T18:21:18 <satwo> What about orphaned tx? I know there is a separate orphan tx pool from the "regular" mempool, but don't know if it is queryable
240 2018-03-31T18:21:32 <arubi> there's no such thing as orphan tx
241 2018-03-31T18:21:40 <arubi> it would be invalid
242 2018-03-31T18:21:57 <arubi> you can enable debugging in your node and listen to invalid txs coming in if they do
243 2018-03-31T18:22:11 <arubi> debug=mempoolrej I think
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245 2018-03-31T18:22:24 <ProfMac> lol. Ima gonna create a random block with a silly prev-block-hash and call it the stale-orphan.
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247 2018-03-31T18:22:31 <arubi> haha
248 2018-03-31T18:22:53 <ProfMac> Actually, I have one at hand now...
249 2018-03-31T18:23:23 <arubi> satwo, by orphan tx I do mean a tx with missing inputs. it's completely invalid and won't be relayed
250 2018-03-31T18:24:02 <arubi> if you mean double spends, these are not kept at all anywhere except for if they're in your wallet
251 2018-03-31T18:24:24 <arubi> (or you can listen to them in debug)
252 2018-03-31T18:24:48 <arubi> ProfMac, well not a mainnet difficulty block right :)
253 2018-03-31T18:25:06 <satwo> Thanks arubi, I'll try using that bitcoind param
254 2018-03-31T18:25:16 <arubi> alright
255 2018-03-31T18:25:30 <satwo> Here's the reference to "orphan transactions" that got me curious: https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/54314/do-we-put-all-the-transactions-in-the-memory-pool/54322#54322
256 2018-03-31T18:26:08 <ProfMac> I was looking at stales and thinking "winner take all" is kinda harsh. Then I thought "I could take all the stales at the same height, and generate a block with a weighted payont to all the original coinbase. Then I thought "but why, that's dumb." Then I thought, actually I have probably just re-invented the way P2Pool works.
257 2018-03-31T18:26:08 <satwo> Murch references a "separate orphan pool" for "orphaned transactions"
258 2018-03-31T18:26:14 <arubi> oh well I stand corrected, but they're still invalid in our mempool without a parent
259 2018-03-31T18:27:02 <arubi> it's probably an internal thing. there's no reason for it to be query-able
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262 2018-03-31T18:28:46 <ProfMac> So, here are my thoughts on how to use "stales" to form a "campaign" as the start of a distributed mining pool
263 2018-03-31T18:28:48 <ProfMac> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oy5neCZMH8FGbc0KA6dGfl9caPqeegh-rUGMwNJOiOI/edit
264 2018-03-31T18:28:53 <arubi> well p2pool works by letting folks mine with a lower difficulty to get shares, eventually one share is below the actual diff
265 2018-03-31T18:29:10 <arubi> ethereum has something called "uncle blocks" that uses stales
266 2018-03-31T18:29:42 <ProfMac> Yes, I assumed that. Uncle blocks. LOL. That's actually a really good name.
267 2018-03-31T18:30:03 <arubi> not sure how it's working out for them
268 2018-03-31T18:30:31 <arubi> there's been a good presentation about exploiting that mechanism.. I forget what the name was
269 2018-03-31T18:31:05 <ProfMac> Well, I'm coding up my idea, testing it on a quarantine net. My progress meter is somewhere between "gee, this is harder than I thought" and "why did I ever think it was a good idea"
270 2018-03-31T18:31:21 <arubi> sounds like coding for bitcoin :)
271 2018-03-31T18:32:08 <ProfMac> I'm stuck back in time (for reasons that won't easily budge) and am implimenting this in the 0.8.1 client.
272 2018-03-31T18:32:40 <arubi> the longer you continue in your 0.8.1, the harder it'll be to advance to a recent version
273 2018-03-31T18:35:11 <arubi> bite the bullet. I had to do it a bunch of times.
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276 2018-03-31T18:40:49 <arubi> I remember having to migrate from 0.13.1 to 0.15, it sucked as I did want to continue working on my stuff but eventually it was for the best and it gave me the chance to refractor. now moving from 0.15 to 0.16 will be easier once I get around to it
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278 2018-03-31T18:43:31 <ProfMac> I'll move, in time. But my karate instructor always told us to master one style first, don't keep hopping around.
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283 2018-03-31T18:54:49 <arubi> :)
284 2018-03-31T18:56:08 <ProfMac> lol. always too late for the conversation. I should have said "professors work in all three areas, the past, present, and future"
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288 2018-03-31T19:03:54 <arubi> hopefully not a too distant future
289 2018-03-31T19:04:55 <ProfMac> I usually try to plan ahead 10-15 years. I'm also trying to look 50 years ahead and plant some trees for my grandsons that will produce food as the climate changes.
290 2018-03-31T19:07:17 <arubi> 10-15 is fine, 50 years is only viable if we manage to make humans live longer than they would on average now. I think we would
291 2018-03-31T19:07:56 <ProfMac> One energetically does things for grandkids that seems foolish as a young parent.
292 2018-03-31T19:09:58 <arubi> well as a non parent, I just hope to live long enough to be around for when we invent immortality :)
293 2018-03-31T19:10:57 <ProfMac> even that changes. I've done things that would be bucket list stuff for some people. I'm not running away from death, just living each day.
294 2018-03-31T19:11:59 <arubi> we'll see. eternity is a pretty long time to be filling buckets
295 2018-03-31T19:12:32 <ProfMac> I think of interesting new things frequently enough.
296 2018-03-31T19:13:18 <ProfMac> I interviewed to teach 9-12th grade mathematics on the reservation at a school dedicated to revitalizing the Ojibwe language. Cool, huh?
297 2018-03-31T19:14:13 <arubi> that's pretty exotic yea
298 2018-03-31T19:16:04 <ProfMac> I am strongly considering a project to make a blockchain based auction system. I did run an auction on the blockchain back in 2013 when I bought my Avalon.
299 2018-03-31T19:16:32 <arubi> what's the blockchain used for?
300 2018-03-31T19:16:52 <ProfMac> Well, I'm glad you asked. Let me find a link ...
301 2018-03-31T19:18:36 <ProfMac> Here is a link to one of the threads. They are dreary long and tedious, as business things are when they are not hot & angry.
302 2018-03-31T19:18:40 <ProfMac> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=159214.0
303 2018-03-31T19:20:34 <ProfMac> Basically, you pay to an address to bid. Top n bidders win n items. The blockchain provides timestamps for end of auction, public transparency of bid and pay process, guarantee of interested, funded bidders(no shilling)
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305 2018-03-31T19:21:33 <ProfMac> I might add the ability to store documents, or at least links with sha-256 to documents, and introduce a kickoff transaction.
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307 2018-03-31T19:22:32 <ProfMac> lol. Back when I could own 62.781 BTC.
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310 2018-03-31T19:25:12 <arubi> I'll read through it. personally I think that by now with advancements in bitcoin the on chain stuff is mostly obsolete, so it might be interesting to move the mechanism off chain
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312 2018-03-31T19:28:23 <ProfMac> Yes. Even then, there was the mechanism to put time limits on transactions, and "microchannels." I tested some of that stuff on a private network and it seemd to be working in 0.8.1 (which was the new & trendy release then). The bidders all said that I make things way too complicated, so I did it on chain. One danger with microchannels back then was that they were live transactions traded between parties, but, ahem, not (dis
313 2018-03-31T19:28:23 <ProfMac> ruptively) submitted.
314 2018-03-31T19:30:08 <arubi> right, back then script couldn't handle proper timelocks and things had to be done interactively. these days we have timelocks in script and contract hash signing
315 2018-03-31T19:30:42 <arubi> sign to contract rather
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317 2018-03-31T19:33:11 <ProfMac> um... in which version did the timelocks get stable?
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320 2018-03-31T19:35:48 <arubi> we have two opcodes, csv and ctlv. cltv is earlier, csv was enabled on mainnet in may 2016
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322 2018-03-31T19:36:30 <arubi> oh sorry, the soft fork count was started in may
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324 2018-03-31T19:38:05 <arubi> I think it was at 0.12~
325 2018-03-31T19:39:08 <ProfMac> ah, maybe that's my next version to deep-study.
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329 2018-03-31T19:40:55 <arubi> I think you should just go to something after 0.13.1 that has segwit too
330 2018-03-31T19:41:04 <arubi> well, 0.13.1 and on
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332 2018-03-31T19:41:51 <ProfMac> I'm kind of avoiding segwit at the moment. I can't seem to get answers about it that aren't hot to discuss.
333 2018-03-31T19:42:05 <arubi> like what? it's really simple
334 2018-03-31T19:42:29 <arubi> it's genius level simple, that's what's so great about it
335 2018-03-31T19:42:47 <ProfMac> Can you give the 50 word summary?
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338 2018-03-31T19:44:42 <arubi> well, it does two major things. first is adding a new scriptpubkey type that is versioned, so soft forks become easier, and second is that it moves scriptsig stuff into a new construct in a transaction called a witness stack. the items in the witness stack are not hashed as part of the txid and the items are not treated as a script (like scriptsig) but rather as a pure stack
339 2018-03-31T19:45:32 <arubi> that's it mostly
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341 2018-03-31T19:46:07 <ProfMac> I assume the first question raised was about not hashing the witness stack.
342 2018-03-31T19:46:47 <arubi> it's hashed, just not part of the txid. it's hash is just called a "hash" and is committed to by a miner in the coinbase tx
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345 2018-03-31T19:47:52 <arubi> so a transaction is still referred to by its txid, but for validation in a block the hash is used. signing is completely overhauled and is much simpler than legacy signing
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347 2018-03-31T19:50:30 <ProfMac> I fear to ask. Why was this so divisive?
348 2018-03-31T19:50:54 <arubi> it really wasn't. the fud was all manufactured by altcoin pumpers
349 2018-03-31T19:51:26 <arubi> in reality, 0.13.1 (the first version to add segwit) was adopted very quickly by the network
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351 2018-03-31T19:52:14 <arubi> there's this other thing where segwit block validation disables covert asicboost. some miners were not happy with that
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354 2018-03-31T19:55:57 <ProfMac> ah. Bitcoin does seem to attract certain personality types.
355 2018-03-31T19:56:35 *** greenbigfrog has joined #bitcoin-dev
356 2018-03-31T19:56:54 <arubi> for better or for worse right :)
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359 2018-03-31T19:58:17 <ProfMac> I've stopped bringing dates to bitcoin meetups.
360 2018-03-31T19:59:10 <arubi> haha, I see my friends are getting tired of me talking about bitcoin so I can assume a date would go crazy in a meetup
361 2018-03-31T19:59:57 <arubi> I did mention it on dates, but it didn't seem to be interesting for her
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363 2018-03-31T20:01:21 <arubi> eventually I'll have to stop mentioning it to people altogether. you wouldn't tell people that you keep gold bars at home
364 2018-03-31T20:01:43 <ProfMac> She just doesn't want me to wear my tin-foil hat to dinners with her friends.
365 2018-03-31T20:02:07 <ProfMac> Yeah, the really rich are quite about it.
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367 2018-03-31T20:04:16 <ProfMac> I think my project is ready for GitHub. I'm going to eat and let my thoughts percolate before I do that.
368 2018-03-31T20:04:23 *** ProfMac is now known as ProfMac_
369 2018-03-31T20:04:28 <arubi> cool, I'm off to sleep o/
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390 2018-03-31T21:49:45 <ProfMac> I have pushed git@github.com:a-mcintosh/expt-block1.git This is a new rpc command that creates a coinbase transaction, serializes it, recovers the hex, recovers a txn, shows that the txn can be manipulate under program control, emits a JSON object with verification.
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