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8 2018-11-17T01:07:13 <esotericnonsense> phm87: so i'm not sure why you're trying to do this, but it's not going to work
9 2018-11-17T01:07:38 <esotericnonsense> phm87: if you give someone RPC access there are various other ways for them to exfiltrate funds
10 2018-11-17T01:08:58 <esotericnonsense> phm87: the way you would actually achieve this is via an intermediate layer
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12 2018-11-17T01:25:12 <satwo> Hello all. In debug.log the "UpdateTip" log is often directly followed by a message a message such as "Erased 3 orphan tx included or conflicted by block". What is this referring to exactly? A block gets mined in which a tx in your orphan pool is confirmed?
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17 2018-11-17T01:39:49 <esotericnonsense> satwo: so i've just briefly perused src/net_processing.cpp
18 2018-11-17T01:41:18 <esotericnonsense> if i'm not wrong, an orphan tx is a transaction for which the parent is not known to the node (i'm not sure why the node has these, but yeah)
19 2018-11-17T01:41:35 <esotericnonsense> anyway, when that message appears it's because the node can now see the parent
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22 2018-11-17T02:12:46 <satwo> esotericnonsense: Thanks, that's what I was thinking. But does it mean that your node never saw the parent, but the miner did? Implying that perhaps a miner mined the parent out-of-band?
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46 2018-11-17T07:35:02 <rhavar> Kind of a stupid idea, but I think it's interesting. Instead of "First Seen Safe" type rules for transactions, preferring the transaction with the lowest txhash.
47 2018-11-17T07:35:41 <rhavar> That would help ensure that nodes mempools are more synchronized in an attack where conflicting transactions are broadcasted separately
48 2018-11-17T07:37:51 <rhavar> And probably not a huge DoS vector, as you'd probably really struggle to generate more than a dozen transactions with consecutively lower hashes than each other
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51 2018-11-17T07:50:17 <luke-jr> rhavar: it's not expected that nodes will have identical mempools
52 2018-11-17T07:50:28 <luke-jr> rhavar: and anything other than fee has DoS issues
53 2018-11-17T07:50:45 <rhavar> Sure, but it's preferable if they're more similar
54 2018-11-17T07:50:53 <luke-jr> not particularly
55 2018-11-17T07:51:02 <rhavar> This would still have the same fee rules, it's just a replacement for FSS
56 2018-11-17T07:51:12 <rhavar> e.g. RBF rules would stay the same (for DoS reasons)
57 2018-11-17T07:51:28 <rhavar> Just if 2 transactions were raced with the same feerate, it would prefer the lower txhash
58 2018-11-17T07:51:53 <phm87> esotericnonsense ok thx. I want to do this to add protections to bitcoin. exchanges do it but it should be opensource
59 2018-11-17T07:52:08 <rhavar> Having more similiar mempools helps with fast block relay
60 2018-11-17T07:52:37 <rhavar> And it's also useful for merchants, to have a better picture of what's expected to go into the next block
61 2018-11-17T07:53:00 <rhavar> (i.e. instead of waiting for a block to know someone is trying to double spend, it's nice to see immediately)
62 2018-11-17T07:53:22 <rhavar> But anyway, it's definitely not a good idea. I just thought it's interesting
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64 2018-11-17T07:57:48 <rhavar> You could also do something similar with block races actually. Like say 2 blocks have the same amount of work --- sort them -- then compute hash(blockA || blockB)) and if the hash is less than 2^255, blockA wins. If it's greater then block B wins
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66 2018-11-17T07:58:30 <rhavar> Kind of stupid though. But would help against low-hash-power selfish mining, i believe
67 2018-11-17T07:58:40 <rhavar> but it also falls apart in a 3-way block race lol
68 2018-11-17T07:59:09 <rhavar> (or at least, is very weird :/)
69 2018-11-17T08:00:18 <arubi> something like that would introduce one-block reorgs
70 2018-11-17T08:00:31 <rhavar> It would make it a lot easier to have one-block reorgs, yeah
71 2018-11-17T08:01:24 <rhavar> I think it'd reduce the security of 1 conf hugely
72 2018-11-17T08:02:44 <rhavar> to re-org the current best block, you need to find two blocks before the network finds one. While with the "hash sort" method, you just need to find 1 block to get a 50% chance of reorging it
73 2018-11-17T08:07:28 <arubi> I think this security decrease extends to any length of chain, say when someone is mining a secret chain intended to replace the main chain
74 2018-11-17T08:10:13 <rhavar> probably
75 2018-11-17T08:10:25 <rhavar> Definitely sucks, but has some interesting properties. Like it's much fairer to minority miners i think
76 2018-11-17T08:10:56 <rhavar> They'd be much less affected by block propagation times
77 2018-11-17T08:11:19 <rhavar> (where currently big and connected miners have a rather inherent advantage)
78 2018-11-17T08:16:07 <arubi> I'm not sure right now, but I think this introduction of same height chain block reorg really helps for selfish mining
79 2018-11-17T08:16:22 <arubi> err, block chain..
80 2018-11-17T08:16:46 <rhavar> nah, i think it makes it harder
81 2018-11-17T08:17:22 <rhavar> Well depends on the amount of hash power the selfish miner has
82 2018-11-17T08:18:30 <rhavar> But reduces the effectiveness of the sort of attack where the selfish miner has a block ready to propagate, and already "pre-deployed" it on the network and then blasts it out when he detects a competitor
83 2018-11-17T08:18:30 <arubi> just woke up, having difficulty thinking about this :)
84 2018-11-17T08:18:47 <rhavar> And selfish mining can only work for small miners when they use that trick
85 2018-11-17T08:19:16 <rhavar> (if i understand correctly, which is not a very safe assumption)
86 2018-11-17T08:20:20 <rhavar> There's a threshold (1/4th or 1/3rd ?) of the hash power, where a selfish miner doesn't need to win block races like that to be profitable though
87 2018-11-17T08:21:56 <arubi> if their secret block is a lower hash than the one the network discovered, then they have very high incentive to continue mining in secret. if it's higher then they must at least find another one to (like current rules)
88 2018-11-17T08:22:48 <arubi> find another one to *extend - sorry I gotta get coffee :)
89 2018-11-17T08:22:53 <rhavar> Look at the formula i proposed: " hash(blockA || blockB)) and if the hash is less than 2^255, blockA wins. If it's greater then block B wins "
90 2018-11-17T08:23:00 <rhavar> That stops you being able to tell
91 2018-11-17T08:23:14 <rhavar> If you mine a block, you can't tell if it's good or bad ... until you see the "competitor"
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93 2018-11-17T08:24:12 <rhavar> Oh sorry, i misunderstood you
94 2018-11-17T08:24:18 <rhavar> I should probably get a coffee too
95 2018-11-17T08:27:07 <rhavar> It's also a little incentive incompatible. It's a bit ridiculous to ask a miner to abandon a block he mined just because someone found it with a "nice hash" at the same amount of work
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97 2018-11-17T08:28:25 <arubi> mmmh coffee. yep. it's much better to opportunistically try and mine another one on top of it to bypass that rule
98 2018-11-17T08:28:47 <rhavar> But at least the "neutral" miners (who don't have a block in the race) can follow the rule
99 2018-11-17T08:29:45 <rhavar> In the case of no overt mining / reorg attacks ... i think the rule would be way nicer. But way too many downsides of it to be more than a thought experiment
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103 2018-11-17T08:38:20 <rhavar> @arubi: after some thought, i think you're right. It would actually make selfish mining easier
104 2018-11-17T08:39:07 <arubi> ah cool, glad I was making sense
105 2018-11-17T08:41:52 <rhavar> I think you can kinda mitigate it to a fair bit by a rule like the "nice hash contest" is only valid for X seconds (e.g. a legit block race), but at that point you're just putting lipstick on a pig
106 2018-11-17T08:42:30 <arubi> yea anything that requires synchronization is probably not worth it
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108 2018-11-17T08:47:07 <rhavar> But now that I think about it, is "First seen valid" really incentive compatible? Shouldn't an incentive-driven miner tie-break by picking the block with the smallest coinbase output
109 2018-11-17T08:48:35 <rhavar> (i.e. it's in a miners interest to pick a block which leaves them more transaction-fees to include in their own block)
110 2018-11-17T08:49:59 <arubi> either that or they'd rather pick the one with the block time that will add up to a lower difficulty increase
111 2018-11-17T08:50:42 <arubi> but yea the fees game also sounds right
112 2018-11-17T08:52:00 <rhavar> I have a nagging feeling that if miners completely optimized for (immediate, non-externalized) incentive compatibility -- bitcoin would break pretty fast lol
113 2018-11-17T08:52:54 <rhavar> (and ignored stuff like "making their hardware useless" of course)
114 2018-11-17T08:53:37 <arubi> given what we've seen during the covert asicboost vs. segwit upgrade period, I think that's kinda true
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122 2018-11-17T09:36:23 <esotericnonsense> phm87: depending on how much effort I put in to my front-end something similar might end up being OSS
123 2018-11-17T09:36:59 <esotericnonsense> phm87: https://gitlab.electronrelocation.com/esotericnonsense/bitcoin-top the 'backend' there is an RPC proxy which has rudimentary whitelisting etc
124 2018-11-17T09:37:23 <esotericnonsense> in this case it's going to be just authentication for wallet access outside of the normal walletpassphrase style stuff
125 2018-11-17T09:37:38 <esotericnonsense> but that's the correct point to do this sort of thing IMO
126 2018-11-17T09:38:06 <esotericnonsense> don't expose RPC, don't even use the commands directly, have an API endpoint that suits your use case and use that / expose that
127 2018-11-17T09:38:44 <esotericnonsense> (a whitelist is better than a blacklist because bitcoind has a whole bunch of RPC functionality, consider it just like root access vs sudo)
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