12019-12-17T02:59:39  *** ZmnSCPxj has quit IRC
  22019-12-17T04:07:23  *** achow101 has quit IRC
  32019-12-17T04:14:19  *** achow101 has joined ##taproot-bip-review
  42019-12-17T04:31:41  *** achow101 has quit IRC
  52019-12-17T04:50:50  *** achow101 has joined ##taproot-bip-review
  62019-12-17T06:18:31  *** pinheadmz has quit IRC
  72019-12-17T07:32:19  *** ZmnSCPxj has joined ##taproot-bip-review
  82019-12-17T07:58:47  *** aj has quit IRC
  92019-12-17T07:59:01  *** aj has joined ##taproot-bip-review
 102019-12-17T08:34:16  *** orlovsky has quit IRC
 112019-12-17T08:35:01  *** dr-orlovsky has joined ##taproot-bip-review
 122019-12-17T08:58:29  *** b10c has joined ##taproot-bip-review
 132019-12-17T09:03:07  *** chm-diederichs_ has joined ##taproot-bip-review
 142019-12-17T09:03:10  *** ajonas_ has joined ##taproot-bip-review
 152019-12-17T09:04:45  *** maaku_ has joined ##taproot-bip-review
 162019-12-17T09:05:09  *** raj_ has joined ##taproot-bip-review
 172019-12-17T09:05:49  *** potatoe_1ace has joined ##taproot-bip-review
 182019-12-17T09:06:01  *** andytosh1 has joined ##taproot-bip-review
 192019-12-17T09:06:17  *** nehan_ has joined ##taproot-bip-review
 202019-12-17T09:06:27  *** jnewbery_ has joined ##taproot-bip-review
 212019-12-17T09:07:50  *** lukedashjr has joined ##taproot-bip-review
 222019-12-17T09:09:15  *** cdecker_ has joined ##taproot-bip-review
 232019-12-17T09:09:31  *** BlueMatt_ has joined ##taproot-bip-review
 242019-12-17T09:09:32  *** somethinglittle has joined ##taproot-bip-review
 252019-12-17T09:10:46  *** andytoshi has quit IRC
 262019-12-17T09:10:46  *** luke-jr has quit IRC
 272019-12-17T09:10:46  *** maaku has quit IRC
 282019-12-17T09:10:47  *** belcher has quit IRC
 292019-12-17T09:10:47  *** potatoe_face has quit IRC
 302019-12-17T09:10:48  *** raj_149 has quit IRC
 312019-12-17T09:10:48  *** jnewbery has quit IRC
 322019-12-17T09:10:48  *** ajonas has quit IRC
 332019-12-17T09:10:48  *** instagibbs has quit IRC
 342019-12-17T09:10:48  *** BlueMatt has quit IRC
 352019-12-17T09:10:49  *** dr_orlovsky has quit IRC
 362019-12-17T09:10:50  *** chm-diederichs has quit IRC
 372019-12-17T09:10:51  *** cdecker has quit IRC
 382019-12-17T09:10:51  *** nothingmuch has quit IRC
 392019-12-17T09:10:52  *** nehan has quit IRC
 402019-12-17T09:10:52  *** chm-diederichs_ is now known as chm-diederichs
 412019-12-17T09:11:15  *** dr_orlovsky has joined ##taproot-bip-review
 422019-12-17T09:11:19  *** instagibbs has joined ##taproot-bip-review
 432019-12-17T09:12:16  *** andytosh1 has quit IRC
 442019-12-17T09:14:56  *** lukedashjr is now known as luke-jr
 452019-12-17T09:19:59  *** belcher has joined ##taproot-bip-review
 462019-12-17T09:36:32  *** llfourn has joined ##taproot-bip-review
 472019-12-17T11:32:20  *** jonatack has quit IRC
 482019-12-17T12:01:42  *** llfourn has quit IRC
 492019-12-17T12:31:57  *** llfourn has joined ##taproot-bip-review
 502019-12-17T12:36:54  *** llfourn has quit IRC
 512019-12-17T12:42:47  *** jonatack has joined ##taproot-bip-review
 522019-12-17T13:03:37  *** real_or_random has quit IRC
 532019-12-17T13:05:10  *** real_or_random has joined ##taproot-bip-review
 542019-12-17T13:26:29  *** llfourn has joined ##taproot-bip-review
 552019-12-17T13:31:16  *** llfourn has quit IRC
 562019-12-17T13:45:49  *** somethinglittle is now known as nothingmuch
 572019-12-17T13:47:06  *** llfourn has joined ##taproot-bip-review
 582019-12-17T13:51:33  *** llfourn has quit IRC
 592019-12-17T13:55:02  *** llfourn has joined ##taproot-bip-review
 602019-12-17T13:58:58  *** llfourn` has joined ##taproot-bip-review
 612019-12-17T13:59:28  *** llfourn has quit IRC
 622019-12-17T14:03:51  *** llfourn` has quit IRC
 632019-12-17T14:06:21  *** llfourn` has joined ##taproot-bip-review
 642019-12-17T14:07:28  *** michaelfolkson has joined ##taproot-bip-review
 652019-12-17T14:11:10  *** llfourn` has quit IRC
 662019-12-17T14:13:43  *** michaelfolkson has quit IRC
 672019-12-17T14:15:01  *** michaelfolkson has joined ##taproot-bip-review
 682019-12-17T14:17:51  *** llfourn` has joined ##taproot-bip-review
 692019-12-17T14:22:23  *** llfourn` has quit IRC
 702019-12-17T14:26:55  *** llfourn` has joined ##taproot-bip-review
 712019-12-17T14:32:19  *** llfourn` has quit IRC
 722019-12-17T14:32:39  *** llfourn` has joined ##taproot-bip-review
 732019-12-17T14:33:38  *** jonatack has quit IRC
 742019-12-17T14:37:24  *** llfourn` has quit IRC
 752019-12-17T14:38:46  *** llfourn` has joined ##taproot-bip-review
 762019-12-17T14:41:52  *** llfourn` has quit IRC
 772019-12-17T14:42:08  *** llfourn` has joined ##taproot-bip-review
 782019-12-17T14:46:54  *** llfourn` has quit IRC
 792019-12-17T14:49:35  *** llfourn` has joined ##taproot-bip-review
 802019-12-17T14:54:31  *** llfourn` has quit IRC
 812019-12-17T14:54:51  *** llfourn` has joined ##taproot-bip-review
 822019-12-17T14:55:50  *** pyskell has joined ##taproot-bip-review
 832019-12-17T14:59:59  *** llfourn` has quit IRC
 842019-12-17T15:05:10  *** llfourn` has joined ##taproot-bip-review
 852019-12-17T15:07:35  *** michaelfolkson has quit IRC
 862019-12-17T15:10:33  *** llfourn` has quit IRC
 872019-12-17T15:10:41  *** BlueMatt_ is now known as BlueMatt
 882019-12-17T15:11:11  *** BlueMatt is now known as Guest54034
 892019-12-17T15:12:11  *** Guest54034 has joined ##taproot-bip-review
 902019-12-17T15:12:24  *** llfourn` has joined ##taproot-bip-review
 912019-12-17T15:16:52  *** llfourn` has quit IRC
 922019-12-17T15:21:31  *** llfourn` has joined ##taproot-bip-review
 932019-12-17T15:22:49  *** michaelfolkson has joined ##taproot-bip-review
 942019-12-17T15:24:00  *** Guest54034 is now known as BlueMatt
 952019-12-17T15:26:08  *** llfourn` has quit IRC
 962019-12-17T15:27:12  *** llfourn` has joined ##taproot-bip-review
 972019-12-17T15:32:10  *** llfourn` has quit IRC
 982019-12-17T15:37:30  *** llfourn` has joined ##taproot-bip-review
 992019-12-17T15:42:37  *** llfourn` has quit IRC
1002019-12-17T15:46:11  *** llfourn` has joined ##taproot-bip-review
1012019-12-17T15:51:13  *** llfourn` has quit IRC
1022019-12-17T15:55:09  *** llfourn` has joined ##taproot-bip-review
1032019-12-17T16:00:04  *** llfourn` has quit IRC
1042019-12-17T16:05:11  *** llfourn` has joined ##taproot-bip-review
1052019-12-17T16:05:54  *** b10c has quit IRC
1062019-12-17T16:08:18  *** pyskl has joined ##taproot-bip-review
1072019-12-17T16:08:54  *** meh2 has joined ##taproot-bip-review
1082019-12-17T16:09:53  *** llfourn` has quit IRC
1092019-12-17T16:10:20  *** llfourn` has joined ##taproot-bip-review
1102019-12-17T16:11:16  *** pyskell has quit IRC
1112019-12-17T16:12:48  *** pyskl has quit IRC
1122019-12-17T16:15:55  *** llfourn` has quit IRC
1132019-12-17T16:17:26  *** llfourn` has joined ##taproot-bip-review
1142019-12-17T16:19:06  *** andytoshi has joined ##taproot-bip-review
1152019-12-17T16:19:06  *** andytoshi has joined ##taproot-bip-review
1162019-12-17T16:19:06  *** pinheadmz has joined ##taproot-bip-review
1172019-12-17T16:19:57  *** llfourn` has quit IRC
1182019-12-17T16:28:55  *** jonatack has joined ##taproot-bip-review
1192019-12-17T16:30:20  *** llfourn` has joined ##taproot-bip-review
1202019-12-17T16:33:43  *** llfourn` has quit IRC
1212019-12-17T16:33:58  *** llfourn` has joined ##taproot-bip-review
1222019-12-17T16:38:54  *** llfourn` has quit IRC
1232019-12-17T16:44:37  *** llfourn` has joined ##taproot-bip-review
1242019-12-17T16:49:32  *** llfourn` has quit IRC
1252019-12-17T16:51:21  *** afk11 has quit IRC
1262019-12-17T16:51:35  *** mol has quit IRC
1272019-12-17T16:52:39  *** afk11 has joined ##taproot-bip-review
1282019-12-17T16:55:31  *** llfourn` has joined ##taproot-bip-review
1292019-12-17T17:00:20  *** llfourn` has quit IRC
1302019-12-17T17:06:25  *** llfourn` has joined ##taproot-bip-review
1312019-12-17T17:07:44  *** michaelfolkson has quit IRC
1322019-12-17T17:09:45  *** michaelfolkson has joined ##taproot-bip-review
1332019-12-17T17:11:25  *** llfourn` has quit IRC
1342019-12-17T17:13:33  *** andytoshi has quit IRC
1352019-12-17T17:15:57  *** davterra has joined ##taproot-bip-review
1362019-12-17T17:17:17  *** llfourn` has joined ##taproot-bip-review
1372019-12-17T17:21:49  *** llfourn` has quit IRC
1382019-12-17T17:22:05  *** llfourn` has joined ##taproot-bip-review
1392019-12-17T17:24:34  *** michaelfolkson has quit IRC
1402019-12-17T17:27:10  *** michaelfolkson has joined ##taproot-bip-review
1412019-12-17T17:28:15  *** llfourn` has quit IRC
1422019-12-17T17:28:59  *** llfourn` has joined ##taproot-bip-review
1432019-12-17T17:32:37  *** llfourn` has quit IRC
1442019-12-17T17:32:52  *** llfourn` has joined ##taproot-bip-review
1452019-12-17T17:37:48  *** llfourn` has quit IRC
1462019-12-17T17:42:14  *** llfourn` has joined ##taproot-bip-review
1472019-12-17T17:47:16  *** llfourn` has quit IRC
1482019-12-17T17:49:38  *** llfourn` has joined ##taproot-bip-review
1492019-12-17T17:54:26  *** llfourn` has quit IRC
1502019-12-17T18:01:04  *** llfourn` has joined ##taproot-bip-review
1512019-12-17T18:02:03  *** andytoshi has joined ##taproot-bip-review
1522019-12-17T18:02:03  *** andytoshi has joined ##taproot-bip-review
1532019-12-17T18:06:10  *** llfourn` has quit IRC
1542019-12-17T18:40:49  *** llfourn` has joined ##taproot-bip-review
1552019-12-17T18:45:56  *** llfourn` has quit IRC
1562019-12-17T19:00:41  <devrandom> hi
1572019-12-17T19:00:46  <sipa> hi
1582019-12-17T19:00:49  <michaelfolkson> Hi
1592019-12-17T19:01:05  <aj> #startmeeting
1602019-12-17T19:01:05  <lightningbot> Meeting started Tue Dec 17 19:01:05 2019 UTC.  The chair is aj. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
1612019-12-17T19:01:05  <lightningbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
1622019-12-17T19:01:13  <aj> hey! last one!
1632019-12-17T19:01:41  <michaelfolkson> A sequel planned for the new year? ;)
1642019-12-17T19:02:11  *** pyskell has joined ##taproot-bip-review
1652019-12-17T19:02:27  <andytoshi> hiya
1662019-12-17T19:02:35  <pyskell> hi
1672019-12-17T19:04:40  <sipa> i have a tiny suggestion: instead of calling the (c[0] & 0xfe) the leaf version, and having weird requirements on its top bits, what baout calling (c[0] & 0x3e)/2 the leaf version, so that it's just a number from 0 through 31
1682019-12-17T19:09:13  <michaelfolkson> Sounds reasonable. I don't think that change would cause confusion at this stage
1692019-12-17T19:09:51  <sipa> i had difficulty explaining in my talk yesterday why the version number for tapscript is 0xc0 instead of just 0
1702019-12-17T19:10:32  <michaelfolkson> Can you share your slides from yesterday? It might take a while for the video to go up
1712019-12-17T19:10:38  <aj> doesn't that just make it hard to explain why there's a 0x32 and /2 constant instead of <<1 ?
1722019-12-17T19:11:13  <sipa> maybe
1732019-12-17T19:12:02  <sipa> just gave the link on twitter: https://prezi.com/view/AlXd19INd3isgt3SvW8g/
1742019-12-17T19:12:10  <aj> michaelfolkson: i was thinking that maybe something focussed on adding test cases (and test vectors for bip-taproot/tapscript) could work...
1752019-12-17T19:12:33  <michaelfolkson> sipa: Thanks
1762019-12-17T19:12:35  <sipa> aj: yeah, that'd be a good idea
1772019-12-17T19:13:27  <sipa> the slides don't contain that much; they're mostly word clouds to remind me of what to mention
1782019-12-17T19:13:45  <aj> michaelfolkson: i think gmaxwell's suggested the idea of accompanying test cases with small patches to the code it's testing that would trigger the bug, so you can see why the test case is necessary... not quite sure how it'd work, but seems like it could be interesting
1792019-12-17T19:15:03  <michaelfolkson> Yeah sounds interesting
1802019-12-17T19:15:42  <michaelfolkson> Ok cool. So this is the wrap up Q&A. What needs to be covered? I have a couple of questions
1812019-12-17T19:15:57  <sipa> shoot
1822019-12-17T19:16:03  <andytoshi> can someone remind me - is this (and tomorrow) the last review session? or is thre one next week/next year
1832019-12-17T19:16:23  <sipa> this week is the final week
1842019-12-17T19:17:16  <michaelfolkson> We covered use cases in a previous week. What is the status of those? Does Blockstream have a toy implementation of Schnorr/Taproot in Liquid?
1852019-12-17T19:18:02  <andytoshi> no, blockstream is waiting on Core so we can steal code :P
1862019-12-17T19:18:12  *** ddustin has joined ##taproot-bip-review
1872019-12-17T19:18:22  <michaelfolkson> I'm assuming lots or people are waiting until there is a "reference implementation" on testnet before expending resources on use cases? People like BitGo, Bitfinex who have large multisig schemes
1882019-12-17T19:18:31  <sipa> i believe so
1892019-12-17T19:18:40  <sipa> and it's an unfortunate cyclic dependency
1902019-12-17T19:19:23  <andytoshi> so, at blockstream our plan is to pull taproot into Elements as soon as there is a "reference implementation", and then we'll be able to spawn testnets for our own usage
1912019-12-17T19:19:32  <andytoshi> if it would help deployment i think we could prioritize pulling it into liquid production
1922019-12-17T19:19:44  <sipa> where we really need to focus on hammering out the specification, but most of the interesting applications will probably only be even discovered once there are production ready implementations
1932019-12-17T19:19:51  <andytoshi> deployment/surrounding tooling development
1942019-12-17T19:20:22  <michaelfolkson> And you're hoping that people will build new wallets for complex "smart contract" inheritance planning like use cases? No existing wallets are likely to go down this route?
1952019-12-17T19:20:41  <sipa> michaelfolkson: i don't think so
1962019-12-17T19:20:56  <michaelfolkson> Excluding Lightning for now because that will definitely take advantage naturally
1972019-12-17T19:21:06  <sipa> complex use cases will benefit specialized applications that need them
1982019-12-17T19:21:32  <sipa> i don't expect end-user wallets to expose any "develop your own smart spending policy!" features
1992019-12-17T19:21:37  <aj> michaelfolkson: there's been some effort at doing a signet (kallewoof's signed testnet stuff) with taproot enabled but i don't think it's gotten very fair; as far as i know now of the proof-of-concept stuff beyond the optech taproot workshop code made it very far
2002019-12-17T19:22:29  <andytoshi> michaelfolkson: so, liquid has support for covenants, and afaik nobody has taken it upon themselves to push this forward and implement this
2012019-12-17T19:22:52  <andytoshi> part of this is that the entities in liquid are, as a group, less focused on custody and long-term planning than the rest of the ecosystem
2022019-12-17T19:23:03  <michaelfolkson> I don't know if the inheritance planning use case has legs long term. I'm guessing it will eventually. I know you talked about this use case briefly on Noded podcast I think andytoshi
2032019-12-17T19:23:19  <andytoshi> yes, but probably in the context of miniscript
2042019-12-17T19:23:24  <andytoshi> which you can do in bitcoin today
2052019-12-17T19:24:19  <michaelfolkson> But inheritance planning is one use case that could take advantage of the key aggregation of Schnorr too right
2062019-12-17T19:24:20  *** achow101 has quit IRC
2072019-12-17T19:24:40  <michaelfolkson> Not too many use cases I can think of that need those large multisig arrangements
2082019-12-17T19:24:41  <andytoshi> right, yeah, it would make multisigs/threshold sigs more appealing because they would no longer be expensive
2092019-12-17T19:26:21  <michaelfolkson> OK. So on Lightning. Did you guys look over the post from ZmnSCPxj on Lightning and Taproot?
2102019-12-17T19:26:35  <michaelfolkson> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2019-December/002375.html
2112019-12-17T19:26:38  <andytoshi> i didn't find time :(
2122019-12-17T19:27:15  <aj> andytoshi: if you take a week off over xmas/new year, that's probably long enough for a first read? :)
2132019-12-17T19:27:55  <andytoshi> yep :) there's maybe a 50% chance that i'll be able to do it then
2142019-12-17T19:28:08  <andytoshi> but there are lots of things i'd like to use that week for
2152019-12-17T19:28:26  <michaelfolkson> I didn't absorb all of it but it is great that there is sketched out planning on what to do if things take too long or don't happen at all
2162019-12-17T19:28:36  <andytoshi> such as fixing my own wallet tooling to use psbt+miniscrip
2172019-12-17T19:29:16  *** achow101 has joined ##taproot-bip-review
2182019-12-17T19:29:31  <kabaum> Are there any ideas on how to deploy taproot/tapscript/schnorr? Is it reasonable to believe that this will be less contentious than segwit? BIP8? BIP9? Something else?
2192019-12-17T19:31:33  <michaelfolkson> The impression I get is that something like BIP148 is more likely than BIP9 but that discussion will be left to others and not the authors of Schnorr/Taproot in case it becomes controversial. Am I hot or cold? :)
2202019-12-17T19:32:37  <sipa> i have no opinion on activation
2212019-12-17T19:32:45  <michaelfolkson> It could get messy because it essentially sets a template for future upgrades too if it goes smoothly. Which is unfortunate and hopefully it doesn't
2222019-12-17T19:33:23  <aj> the people who thought bip148 was too risky when it happened still think it's risky for the same reasons they did then; something like the mechanism BlueMatt proposed for the great consensus cleanup would be the other approach to bip148 i think. i think picking one or the other of thse is likely to be the most controversial part
2232019-12-17T19:34:39  <aj> "hopefully it doesn't" -- hope that refers to the "get messy" part not the "goes smoothly" :)
2242019-12-17T19:34:50  <michaelfolkson> I'm not aware of the mechanism for the great consensus cleanup. Is there a good resource?
2252019-12-17T19:35:43  *** achow101 has quit IRC
2262019-12-17T19:36:25  <michaelfolkson> Yeah that's what I meant aj :/
2272019-12-17T19:37:22  <aj> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2019-March/016714.html -- deployment section and last paragraph of discussion just prior to the reference implementation section
2282019-12-17T19:37:53  <michaelfolkson> One other question I wanted to ask about was the section in Week 6 where there were questions posed on the upgrade paths and which upgrades would be best for various future possible upgrades
2292019-12-17T19:38:10  *** achow101 has joined ##taproot-bip-review
2302019-12-17T19:38:42  <aj> ( https://github.com/ajtowns/taproot-review/blob/master/week-6.md#upgrade-paths )
2312019-12-17T19:39:05  <michaelfolkson> Yeah we thought they were interesting questions and we struggled to answer them on the group call
2322019-12-17T19:39:40  <michaelfolkson> Part of it was just not being familiar with the low level details of things like CHECKTEMPLATEVERIFY
2332019-12-17T19:40:20  <sipa> i believe CTV wants to be usable in bare outputs for efficiency, which means it needs to use the NOP-redefinition approach
2342019-12-17T19:41:22  <michaelfolkson> I can post a question on this on StackExchange for a more permanent resource
2352019-12-17T19:41:31  <michaelfolkson> But I can't answer it
2362019-12-17T19:41:38  <sipa> what is the question exactly?
2372019-12-17T19:42:47  <michaelfolkson> Why those upgrade paths are listed in order from worst to best? ie the rationale for that order
2382019-12-17T19:43:34  <aj> michaelfolkson: there isn't really a single best answer; i was thinking "of these, just use OP_SUCCESS would work fine". but you could do an unknown pubkey, so "<hash> OP_2 CHECKSIG"; you could have it be PUSHTEMPLATE instead of CHECKTEMPLATE via an OP_SUCCESS, and have to do an EQUALVERIFY or other check, etc
2392019-12-17T19:43:59  <michaelfolkson> And then which would be best for the various possible future upgrades listed?
2402019-12-17T19:45:58  <michaelfolkson> It requires an understanding of all those possible future upgrades so maybe too broad for a StackExchange question
2412019-12-17T19:46:07  <aj> michaelfolkson: no method is "best" or "worst" they've got different tradeoffs and are appropriate at different times, the order's more least-specific to most-specific
2422019-12-17T19:46:24  <michaelfolkson> Ah ok cool, thanks for the clarification
2432019-12-17T19:46:44  <kanzure> will someone be writing a summary of all the review weeks
2442019-12-17T19:47:47  <michaelfolkson> I was thinking of doing a Bitcoin Magazine article if someone (or multiple people) are willing to review it
2452019-12-17T19:48:01  <michaelfolkson> Is that what you meant kanzure?
2462019-12-17T19:48:22  <kanzure> maybe on the level of an optech email (pointing out specific technical details of interest), but sort of yes.
2472019-12-17T19:48:47  <kanzure> alright, thanks.
2482019-12-17T19:48:49  <devrandom> question re OP_CODESEPARATOR - it seems like the design of this opcode never supported any actual use cases.  should it be disabled, so we don't carry the baggage forward?  perhaps it could be redesigned and reintroduced in the future.
2492019-12-17T19:48:55  <aj> michaelfolkson: ANYPREVOUT - unkonw pubkey; CHECKTEMPLATEVERIFY - op_success but unknown pubkey type /could/ work; extra opcodes - OP_SUCCESS; extend math opcodes - OP_SUCCESS or maybe taproot leaf version; commit to block hash - annex; simplicity - leaf version; graftroot or g'root, cross-input sig agg - want to change key path spends, so new segwit version or maybe key length -- those are my
2502019-12-17T19:48:56  <aj> current answers anyway
2512019-12-17T19:50:07  <aj> devrandom: https://github.com/NTumbleBit/NTumbleBit/blob/master/NTumbleBit/EscrowScriptBuilder.cs -- it's theoretically used in tumblebit, not sure how needed it is
2522019-12-17T19:51:26  <kanzure> michaelfolkson: transcript of great consensus cleanup talk https://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/bitcoin-core-dev-tech/2019-06-06-great-consensus-cleanup/
2532019-12-17T19:52:05  <michaelfolkson> Thanks kanzure
2542019-12-17T19:53:15  <michaelfolkson> I'm also going to try to organize a Hangout call for people to discuss what happened in the various study groups. A couple of people have expressed interest in such a call
2552019-12-17T19:53:51  <michaelfolkson> I don't know if all groups made it to the end or not. We had a few drop out in our group
2562019-12-17T19:54:05  <michaelfolkson> It seems some definitely did
2572019-12-17T19:57:04  <aj> i think it'd be interesting to know how people went with the irc vs slack vs hangouts/zoom meetings too
2582019-12-17T19:57:22  *** jeremyrubin has joined ##taproot-bip-review
2592019-12-17T19:57:34  <kabaum> michaelfolkson: Same in our group. It's natural that people drop out. I'm surprised I managed to more or less go through with it, though I had fewer and fewer questions.
2602019-12-17T19:58:49  <devrandom> I also worry about the interaction of OP_CODESEPARATOR and OP_SUCCESS
2612019-12-17T19:58:49  <sipa> kabaum: it's reassuring that the drop in questions is partially because you just had fewer questions (and not purely because people gave up or so)
2622019-12-17T19:59:23  <sipa> devrandom: if there is an OP_SUCCESSx anywhere, no execution happens, and thus OP_CODESEPARATOR is irrelevant in that cade
2632019-12-17T19:59:46  *** ddustin has quit IRC
2642019-12-17T19:59:55  <michaelfolkson> Our group just struggled with time commitments rather than any other negative reason for dropping out
2652019-12-17T20:00:37  <devrandom> the use case I was thinking of: a signature is applied with OP_CODESEPARATOR, with the intent that another party prepends some additional code to the scriptSig at a later date
2662019-12-17T20:01:09  <devrandom> if the other party prepends an OP_SUCCESS, the script will trivially succeeds, which might not have been the intention of the first party
2672019-12-17T20:01:19  <sipa> devrandom: those semantics (the delegation one) are gone in the current bip-tapscript draft
2682019-12-17T20:01:25  <kabaum> sipa: I can just speak for myself. My questions dropped because 1) the reading got harder and 2) I devoted less time
2692019-12-17T20:01:43  <sipa> devrandom: all OP_CODESEPARATOR does is make signatures commit to the last executed OP_CODESEPARATOR
2702019-12-17T20:02:06  <sipa> there is no scriptCode concept anymore (which used to be the OP_CODESEP-modulated executed script)
2712019-12-17T20:02:34  <devrandom> sipa: OK.  with the delegation use case gone, is there any utility left?
2722019-12-17T20:03:30  <sipa> devrandom: yes, making scripts whose signatures commit to the IF/THEN/ELSE branch taken during execution
2732019-12-17T20:03:56  <devrandom> I see
2742019-12-17T20:04:09  <sipa> i explained this in my talk yesterday ;)
2752019-12-17T20:04:41  <michaelfolkson> The video is highly anticipated
2762019-12-17T20:05:59  <michaelfolkson> Ok. It is 8pm. Anyone who wants to join that cross-group call, message me either here now or on the Slack later
2772019-12-17T20:06:18  <michaelfolkson> Thanks all
2782019-12-17T20:07:56  <kabaum> Thanks everyone. It's been a lot of fun and a wonderful learning experience! Special thanks to the organizers (aj, harding et al?)
2792019-12-17T20:08:34  <michaelfolkson> Indeed. Great initiative, thanks for everyone's efforts. I learnt a lot
2802019-12-17T20:08:42  <devrandom> sipa: I guess I missed a couple of crucial sentences ;)
2812019-12-17T20:08:50  <sipa> devrandom: i know, it was long :)
2822019-12-17T20:09:08  <sipa> i talked far longer than i had expected
2832019-12-17T20:10:21  <andytoshi> thanks everyone! this was encouraging and really productive
2842019-12-17T20:11:05  <aj> #endmeeting
2852019-12-17T20:11:05  <lightningbot> Meeting ended Tue Dec 17 20:11:05 2019 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
2862019-12-17T20:11:05  <lightningbot> Minutes:        http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/taproot-bip-review/2019/taproot-bip-review.2019-12-17-19.01.html
2872019-12-17T20:11:05  <lightningbot> Minutes (text): http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/taproot-bip-review/2019/taproot-bip-review.2019-12-17-19.01.txt
2882019-12-17T20:11:05  <lightningbot> Log:            http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/taproot-bip-review/2019/taproot-bip-review.2019-12-17-19.01.log.html
2892019-12-17T20:11:19  <aj> that's a wrap!
2902019-12-17T20:17:13  <gmaxwell> omg conversation
2912019-12-17T20:27:06  *** michaelfolkson has quit IRC
2922019-12-17T20:28:12  *** davterra has quit IRC
2932019-12-17T20:37:02  *** michaelfolkson has joined ##taproot-bip-review
2942019-12-17T20:41:40  *** llfourn` has joined ##taproot-bip-review
2952019-12-17T20:44:15  *** llfourn` has quit IRC
2962019-12-17T20:44:32  *** llfourn` has joined ##taproot-bip-review
2972019-12-17T20:59:18  *** michaelfolkson has quit IRC
2982019-12-17T21:25:43  <aj> sipa: oh, it seems like i didn't actually ask;  what do you think of  "OP_0 CHECKSIG"  as a way of getting a signature via the internal pubkey with standard sighash stuff (like OP_1 CHECKSIG with ANYPREVOUT)?
2992019-12-17T21:55:47  *** pyskell has quit IRC
3002019-12-17T21:58:50  <sipa> aj: seems reasonable, but i wouldn't add it to the current bips now
3012019-12-17T22:24:27  <gmaxwell> but if you have the internal private key, why not sign at the root instead of keypath?
3022019-12-17T22:25:18  <gmaxwell> (I was about to write that it sounded like a good idea, but then realized that AFAICT it's useless)
3032019-12-17T22:45:18  *** llfourn` has quit IRC
3042019-12-17T22:50:55  *** llfourn` has joined ##taproot-bip-review
3052019-12-17T22:52:19  *** belcher has quit IRC
3062019-12-17T22:56:08  *** llfourn` has quit IRC
3072019-12-17T23:00:55  *** orlovsky has joined ##taproot-bip-review
3082019-12-17T23:01:56  *** dr-orlovsky has quit IRC
3092019-12-17T23:25:59  *** llfourn` has joined ##taproot-bip-review
3102019-12-17T23:30:44  *** llfourn` has quit IRC